Who's Looking Out for Our Interests?

[4X4Dodger]

As a group of people that have a single interest at heart (RV's and all that goes with that term) It seems to me that we are terribly under-represented in the halls of government and with almost no clout as a group with Manufacturers, Suppliers and Dealers.

While Good Sam Enterprises tries to position itself as our champion especially with their two sister publications Trailer Life and Motorhome. They really are businesses intended to make a profit and not consumer advocacy organizations.

While these two publications try to fill part of the consumer advocacy role with their RV Resolutions columns they still are a creature of their advertisers.

I have now read TL cover to cover for 6 months and some disturbing things are clear:

Their "reviews" or "tests" they do of new trailer models are basically not much more than thinly veiled advertisements with very little in the way of criticism or (God Forbid) Asking some hard questions like:

How is the Roof constructed?

Why are there no SHOCK ABsorbers?

Why are the tire Ratings so LOW?

Etc.

Further they have a huge bias in content and "reviews" that favors the Huge, Expensive, Luxo 5th Wheel trailers. Trailers that the vast majority of us do not own nor can afford. Dreaming is nice and they should spotlight those models on occasion, but their focus needs to be more realistic to their readers needs and interests.

We as a group deserve better from the major publication that purports to represent us as consumers. The great Car magazines Road and Track, Motor Trend et al made a REAL name for themselves by calling a dog a dog. And giving due praise where deserved, while pushing manufacturers to do better.

Unfortunately Trailer Life and Motorhome are creatures of their advertisers to such a great extent that I fear they will never really take on the single major isssue in this area: Quality Construction.

What we need is a publication and an organization that really represents the interests of RV owners. To government, to Manufacturers and Dealers and to Suppliers. Good Sam Enterprises is NOT it.

So Here is a Challenge to you Mr. Marcus Lemonis. (CEO Of Good Sam Ent.) Remember it is the RV'ers of this country that have made you what you are. Show us that you take our concerns to heart, put some teeth in those two old dogs you own, Trailer Life and Motorhome. Start Asking the HARD questions. Start doing "REAL" reviews that highlight the shortcomings, serious and otherwise of ALL the products you write about. Stop doing so much "Press Release Journalism" and start actually investigating.

In other words pay us back for all of the support and money we as a group have paid you over the years... That's not asking too much.


What do the rest of you think? I'd love to hear the comments on this issue.

[Dog_Trainer]

2012Coleman wrote:

Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.

Gee - isn't that the root of the problem? So if you have an RV then your part of the problem - right? The rest of that quote makes absolutly no sense in the context of the original post.

Everybody on this board wants a quality product to do what they love to do, but the blowback the OP is getting says lay down and take it!

:H

The real problem is that when you are given the real and simple answer you want to make a drama out of it and make it more complicated.

[2012Coleman]

Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.

Gee - isn't that the root of the problem? So if you have an RV then your part of the problem - right? The rest of that quote makes absolutly no sense in the context of the original post.

Everybody on this board wants a quality product to do what they love to do, but the blowback the OP is getting says lay down and take it!

:H

[4X4Dodger]

Dog Trainer wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Newbiecampers wrote:

Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.

^^^^^^^ This, X100

I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".

Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.

Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.

My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.

Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.

Anyone who read my post as a "responsibility argument" ie wanting to shift responsibility either didnt read the post or misunderstood it completely.

In matter of fact it is a CALL for people to TAKE responsibility, join together and work/push for change in the industry so we have a reasonable choice of some level of dependable quality.

It is a Call to the RV PRESS to step forward and become more like the Automotive press and Criticize bad quality, design and questionable products when they see them...ie Take More responsibility.

And it is a Call for People to rethink what they may believe about this industry.

Now please tell me how any of that is advocating either a denial of, or abdication of ones responsibility as it pertains to this issue?

My point is simply this: That if we worked together under the umbrella of an organization that can speak with the authority of huge numbers of RV owners and Buyers to help bring about positive change in the industry WE ALL WIN. The suppliers, the manufacturers and the Buyers...

As for your Logic it seems clear from what you wrote and even clearer from your response. It boils down to "love it or leave it". To me that is a zero sum game.

[4X4Dodger]

BurbMan wrote:
It is very tempting to compare the RV industry to the auto industry, but they are apples and oranges. The BIG reason: elasticity of demand.

In the auto market, people need cars to get to work. People buy cars when the economy is good, they buy cars when the economy is bad. The car payment is something you fit into your budget like a mortgage. If you are Motor Trend, you can say bad things about cars, it won't stop anybody from buying a car, they just won't buy that one.

Demand for RVs is highly elastic....when the economy slows down, Craig's list is crowded with "For Sale" listings of boats, RVs, etc. When the economy hit the skids in 2008, several manufacturers went under, including the Fleetwood, the largest mfr of towables, and Sunnybrook, among others. For example, look at this list of "orphaned" brands of Toy haulers that are no longer in production, as posted on the Toy Hauler Forum:

Orphaned Toy Hauler Brands or Manufacturers
Adventure Mfg RPM
Aliner Cabin A SUT
Airstream Basecamp & PanAmerica
American Freedom
Ameri-Camp Summit Ridge
Alpenlite Defender
Alfa Leisure Toyhouse
Bigfoot 3000 Motorhome
Carriage C-Force & Carri-Lite
Coachmen Adrenaline
CrossRoads CrossTerrain, CrossFire & CrossForce
DRV Luxury Suites: Full House
Edge Outcast & Rebel
EnduraMax Gladiator
Extreme RV, now Extreme Warrior
Fleetwood Gear Box, Formula, Nitrous, RedLine & Scorpion
Frontier RV Trax
Glendale Titanium MPR
Gulf Stream Bounty Hunter
Heartland Razor
Holiday Rambler Next Level
Host RV
Hyper Lite Trailers
Kaddy Krusier: KDX
KIT Manufacturing, see Extreme RV
Keystone Tail-Gator
Keystone Hornet Hideout
Kodiak Epandable 314
Komfort Karry All
Jayco Talon, Recon & Seneca Toy Hauler
McKenzie Dune Chaser & Dune Seeker
MVP RV EnVy, Vortex & Impact
Newmar X-Aire
Open Range: Rolling Thunder
Pilgrim Puresport
Pony Xpress
Rage'n
R-Vision Boogie Box & R-Wagon
Spirit RV Predator
Skyline RV's Toy Hauler line
Starcraft Rockstar
Sunline Tran-Sport
Sun Valley Rattler
SunnyBrook Titan & Big Dog
ThorCA Tahoe, Vortex & Wanderer Wagon
Travel Supreme Rally Sport
Travel Supreme Mid Engine Diesel Pusher
Travelaire Genesis GW33T (Canadian)
Weekend Warrior now Extreme Warrior
West Coast Trailer

Nobody HAS to buy an RV, it is a luxury item. Manufacturers survive the economic cycles by investing little in plants and technology and selling what they can sell when they can sell it. There is no room for objective "reporting" on deficiencies of brands, all the mfrs have the same skeletons in their closets. If a guy read a bad review on a Ford in Motor Trend, he'll buy the Chevy. If a guy reads a bad review about how an RV is built, he will quickly find out they are all built that way and buy a boat instead.

The hallmark of the RV business is to sell what you can sell when you can sell it, and be sure you have enough nuts squirreled away to survive the long winter when it comes....nobody knows for sure when that will be, but it will come. We can't afford any negative press when sales are up.

I wasnt comparing the Auto industry to the RV industry. I was comparing the different approaches the MEDIA that covers those industries take and how the Automotive press has been successful at taking the automotive industry to task and helping further change and still keep their advertisers vs the RV PRESS which is a complete creature of the industry.

Its an important distinction.

[2012Coleman]

kohai wrote:

Chris Bryant wrote:
I will again give a link to the non-profit RV Consumers Group- a 501(c)3 organization-
http://rv.org

The problem with this site is that it is only for those that pay for it. This protects the manufacturers because their dirty laundry isn't public information. The other problem I have is with their survey. I filled it out, but it never really got into questions that quantify how many manufacturing problems I had on my trailer and what type of problems they were. Too many of their questions were subjective. A lot of people on these forums will give a long laundry list of problems they had with their RV and then say they love their RV (consumer satisfaction would rate high but quality would rate low). Without asking the questions in the right way, it can mask problems.

I have seen review sites/companies that are too general in their reviews or too general in their analysis. For work once there was a large research company (well known) that had done an analysis on a very specific set of specialized products. The white paper report from them was something like $500. I decided we could use the information and I bought it and it turned out to be nothing more than product specifications that the manufacturer freely supplied.

It would be great if rv.org is thorough but without paying it is hard to know and as a newbie it would be hard to know how good rv.org is.

I would be curious to see their review for my brand to see how accurate it is. But, since I already have the trailer I'm not going to pay for it to find out what I have already learned.

Maybe we need a survey on here of how useful people have found rv.org (if they have used it). Anybody have experience?

I bought their report for mine - I was highly unimpressed.

[kohai]

Chris Bryant wrote:
I will again give a link to the non-profit RV Consumers Group- a 501(c)3 organization-
http://rv.org

The problem with this site is that it is only for those that pay for it. This protects the manufacturers because their dirty laundry isn't public information. The other problem I have is with their survey. I filled it out, but it never really got into questions that quantify how many manufacturing problems I had on my trailer and what type of problems they were. Too many of their questions were subjective. A lot of people on these forums will give a long laundry list of problems they had with their RV and then say they love their RV (consumer satisfaction would rate high but quality would rate low). Without asking the questions in the right way, it can mask problems.

I have seen review sites/companies that are too general in their reviews or too general in their analysis. For work once there was a large research company (well known) that had done an analysis on a very specific set of specialized products. The white paper report from them was something like $500. I decided we could use the information and I bought it and it turned out to be nothing more than product specifications that the manufacturer freely supplied.

It would be great if rv.org is thorough but without paying it is hard to know and as a newbie it would be hard to know how good rv.org is.

I would be curious to see their review for my brand to see how accurate it is. But, since I already have the trailer I'm not going to pay for it to find out what I have already learned.

Maybe we need a survey on here of how useful people have found rv.org (if they have used it). Anybody have experience?

[BurbMan]

It is very tempting to compare the RV industry to the auto industry, but they are apples and oranges. The BIG reason: elasticity of demand.

In the auto market, people need cars to get to work. People buy cars when the economy is good, they buy cars when the economy is bad. The car payment is something you fit into your budget like a mortgage. If you are Motor Trend, you can say bad things about cars, it won't stop anybody from buying a car, they just won't buy that one.

Demand for RVs is highly elastic....when the economy slows down, Craig's list is crowded with "For Sale" listings of boats, RVs, etc. When the economy hit the skids in 2008, several manufacturers went under, including the Fleetwood, the largest mfr of towables, and Sunnybrook, among others. For example, look at this list of "orphaned" brands of Toy haulers that are no longer in production, as posted on the Toy Hauler Forum:

Orphaned Toy Hauler Brands or Manufacturers
Adventure Mfg RPM
Aliner Cabin A SUT
Airstream Basecamp & PanAmerica
American Freedom
Ameri-Camp Summit Ridge
Alpenlite Defender
Alfa Leisure Toyhouse
Bigfoot 3000 Motorhome
Carriage C-Force & Carri-Lite
Coachmen Adrenaline
CrossRoads CrossTerrain, CrossFire & CrossForce
DRV Luxury Suites: Full House
Edge Outcast & Rebel
EnduraMax Gladiator
Extreme RV, now Extreme Warrior
Fleetwood Gear Box, Formula, Nitrous, RedLine & Scorpion
Frontier RV Trax
Glendale Titanium MPR
Gulf Stream Bounty Hunter
Heartland Razor
Holiday Rambler Next Level
Host RV
Hyper Lite Trailers
Kaddy Krusier: KDX
KIT Manufacturing, see Extreme RV
Keystone Tail-Gator
Keystone Hornet Hideout
Kodiak Epandable 314
Komfort Karry All
Jayco Talon, Recon & Seneca Toy Hauler
McKenzie Dune Chaser & Dune Seeker
MVP RV EnVy, Vortex & Impact
Newmar X-Aire
Open Range: Rolling Thunder
Pilgrim Puresport
Pony Xpress
Rage'n
R-Vision Boogie Box & R-Wagon
Spirit RV Predator
Skyline RV's Toy Hauler line
Starcraft Rockstar
Sunline Tran-Sport
Sun Valley Rattler
SunnyBrook Titan & Big Dog
ThorCA Tahoe, Vortex & Wanderer Wagon
Travel Supreme Rally Sport
Travel Supreme Mid Engine Diesel Pusher
Travelaire Genesis GW33T (Canadian)
Weekend Warrior now Extreme Warrior
West Coast Trailer

Nobody HAS to buy an RV, it is a luxury item. Manufacturers survive the economic cycles by investing little in plants and technology and selling what they can sell when they can sell it. There is no room for objective "reporting" on deficiencies of brands, all the mfrs have the same skeletons in their closets. If a guy read a bad review on a Ford in Motor Trend, he'll buy the Chevy. If a guy reads a bad review about how an RV is built, he will quickly find out they are all built that way and buy a boat instead.

The hallmark of the RV business is to sell what you can sell when you can sell it, and be sure you have enough nuts squirreled away to survive the long winter when it comes....nobody knows for sure when that will be, but it will come. We can't afford any negative press when sales are up.

[peaches_cream]

2012Coleman wrote:

kohai wrote:
I am new to the RV world and bought my first 5th wheel this year. I was willing to spend more for quality if I could find a floor plan and size that matched.

The biggest problem is visibility of who makes a quality unit. I spend days searching the internet trying to find who made great quality units. However, I never could find the right combination of quality, floor plan, size, etc. Even when I did narrow down some units, all I could do was find people online complaining about things and you can find people complaining for any brand.

So, how do I know somebody makes a quality unit? Is there any industry standard reporting on failure rates by manufacturer? How do I know that Brand X has a problem with their slides? Or that Brand Y has a problem with their gel coat?

In my past life I helped create surveys for consumers. I'm really tempted to start up a survey of forum members from across the internet to start quantifying the quality problems for each manufacturer.

Then, I could make that information publicly available to every buyer on the internet for free. Buyers will be able to make purchasing decisions based on hard numbers related to quality instead of just reading random info on forums.

Manufacturers would then be exposed in regards to their quality (or lack thereof) and they would also see how they stack up against the competition. I believe this would then cause an uptick in attention to quality. The component manufacturers will also be exposed (lipert, etc).

The challenge is getting enough responses to the surveys to cover so many manufacturers.

This is a great idea, and I would be willing to help. But I wonder if the mods would allow links to such surveys.

As a newbie shopping for a TT, I too was not very successful doing the research as so many suggest on this thread. And of course I could speak with my wallet and just not buy, but who does that hurt? Well who?? Reality check on aisle one!

I also subscribed to the TL mag - note past tense. As stated. i's just a fancy brochure - nothing more. They TT's and fivers they write about never have a thing wrong - maybe the selection of knobs on the drawers are cited as a drawback at most.

The OP is simply frustrated at the lack of some entity that has a non biased opinion an a range of RV's.

I don't think GS is going to help - why would they shoot themselves in the foot?

Great idea. Who is going to provide you the info? The same people that come here complaining. In order to get reliable info, you need reports from the shops that do the work. I doubt ever getting that info because they have no incentive to provide it. If you take the word of the "complainers" on this forum, just list every manf. as "junk" and be done with it. GO PURCHASE A BOAT TO ENJOY.

[Chris_Bryant]

I will again give a link to the non-profit RV Consumers Group- a 501(c)3 organization-
http://rv.org

[2012Coleman]

kohai wrote:
I am new to the RV world and bought my first 5th wheel this year. I was willing to spend more for quality if I could find a floor plan and size that matched.

The biggest problem is visibility of who makes a quality unit. I spend days searching the internet trying to find who made great quality units. However, I never could find the right combination of quality, floor plan, size, etc. Even when I did narrow down some units, all I could do was find people online complaining about things and you can find people complaining for any brand.

So, how do I know somebody makes a quality unit? Is there any industry standard reporting on failure rates by manufacturer? How do I know that Brand X has a problem with their slides? Or that Brand Y has a problem with their gel coat?

In my past life I helped create surveys for consumers. I'm really tempted to start up a survey of forum members from across the internet to start quantifying the quality problems for each manufacturer.

Then, I could make that information publicly available to every buyer on the internet for free. Buyers will be able to make purchasing decisions based on hard numbers related to quality instead of just reading random info on forums.

Manufacturers would then be exposed in regards to their quality (or lack thereof) and they would also see how they stack up against the competition. I believe this would then cause an uptick in attention to quality. The component manufacturers will also be exposed (lipert, etc).

The challenge is getting enough responses to the surveys to cover so many manufacturers.

This is a great idea, and I would be willing to help. But I wonder if the mods would allow links to such surveys.

As a newbie shopping for a TT, I too was not very successful doing the research as so many suggest on this thread. And of course I could speak with my wallet and just not buy, but who does that hurt? Well who?? Reality check on aisle one!

I also subscribed to the TL mag - note past tense. As stated. i's just a fancy brochure - nothing more. They TT's and fivers they write about never have a thing wrong - maybe the selection of knobs on the drawers are cited as a drawback at most.

The OP is simply frustrated at the lack of some entity that has a non biased opinion an a range of RV's.

I don't think GS is going to help - why would they shoot themselves in the foot?

[AO_hitech]

Newbiecampers wrote:

No clout? You/we have one of the biggest pieces of "clout" in existence: Your Wallet. Don't like what is going on? Then close it.

Your wallet gives you no clout. The loss of revenue from one person means nothing to any of the manufactures. IF you can convince enough other people to not purchase their products/services THEN your combined wallets have some clout. But, by yourself, you have none. It's even worse with the government.

So, what the OP is trying to is that there are no RV advocacy groups and I would agree. He also believes we need one or more and I also agree. He challenged Good Sam to be that group. Not sure I agree there, but something would be better than nothing.

[NJRVer]

Dog Trainer wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Newbiecampers wrote:

Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.

^^^^^^^ This, X100

I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".

Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.

Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.

My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.

Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.

Judging by the many repetitive complaints across manufacturer lines, it seems more like the RV industry builds what it feels like and the buyer has to take it or leave it if they want to participate in the RV way of life.

[peaches_cream]

Dog Trainer wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Newbiecampers wrote:

Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.

^^^^^^^ This, X100

I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".

Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.

Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.

My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.

Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.

EXCELLANT RESPONSE :W

[Dog_Trainer]

4X4Dodger wrote:

Newbiecampers wrote:

Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.

^^^^^^^ This, X100

I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".

Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.

Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.

My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.

Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.

[kohai]

I am new to the RV world and bought my first 5th wheel this year. I was willing to spend more for quality if I could find a floor plan and size that matched.

The biggest problem is visibility of who makes a quality unit. I spend days searching the internet trying to find who made great quality units. However, I never could find the right combination of quality, floor plan, size, etc. Even when I did narrow down some units, all I could do was find people online complaining about things and you can find people complaining for any brand.

So, how do I know somebody makes a quality unit? Is there any industry standard reporting on failure rates by manufacturer? How do I know that Brand X has a problem with their slides? Or that Brand Y has a problem with their gel coat?

In my past life I helped create surveys for consumers. I'm really tempted to start up a survey of forum members from across the internet to start quantifying the quality problems for each manufacturer.

Then, I could make that information publicly available to every buyer on the internet for free. Buyers will be able to make purchasing decisions based on hard numbers related to quality instead of just reading random info on forums.

Manufacturers would then be exposed in regards to their quality (or lack thereof) and they would also see how they stack up against the competition. I believe this would then cause an uptick in attention to quality. The component manufacturers will also be exposed (lipert, etc).

The challenge is getting enough responses to the surveys to cover so many manufacturers.