Bad receptacle installation by factory - potentially unsafe

[myredracer]

I removed a receptacle in our KZ Spree TT on the weekend to replace it with a black one and what I found was disturbing as can be seen in the first photo. Let this serve as a warning to RV owners out there.

The hot and neutral wires were only pushed onto one of the two terminals instead of two as specified by the manufacturer and as required by the UL/CSA certification. This means that the receptacle is only capable of carrying 1/2 it's current rating - 7 1/2 amps. Where higher rated appliances are used like say in a kitchen, this could lead to overheating. Worse, if someone has a heater plugged in and it runs non-stop for long periods of time, that would create an even higher risk of overheating. Note also that the romex/loomex cable sheath does not extend inside the receptacle housing as it is required to.

I've also found two receptacles with reverse polarity and a wire at a breaker in the converter/panel that was completely loose. KZ needs to look at their electrical practices and code compliance. I've also found numerous issues with the 12 volt wiring too. I am NOT impressed. :M

KZ is not alone though. The second photo is from a previous Coachmen Catalina TT that we used to own and you can see the hot wire connected to one terminal only there too. You can also see how the terminal was damaged and it appears that they did not use the correct tool. In two out of two TTs that I've pulled receptacles out of the wall, they've both had the same problem. Not good odds.

Receptacles in RVs are designated "SCD" for self-contained device and do not require an outlet box. These are also use in mobile homes. They are CSA or UL tested and are completely safe to use and do not ever need to be removed and replaced with a residential type (and outlet box) with screw terminals. The MUST be properly installed though and that is where RV factories are at fault. There is a special tool to "punch down" the wires onto the terminals and there is no excuse for not doing it correctly. This catalogue from Hubbell has detailed info. on their Wirecon SCD and explains how they are to be installed.

RVs are required to be wired according to the NEC, which is very detailed on what is required. Plus electrical appliances, wiring devices (recepts. & switches), wire, etc. are required to be UL or CSA certified. The problem is - there is no authority having jurisdiction or electrical engineer that is required to inspect the work for code compliance. To make it even harder, RVs are built in one state and shipped all over the US and to Canada so what AHJ would be responsible? I might consider notifying the electrical safety authority but would it be a state official or would it go to a federal authority?

[Blacklane]

CharlesinGA wrote:

Blacklane wrote:
If you're going to install residential outlets in an RV, at least don't use the screws on the side: use the spring-loaded quick connect kind. Vibration can loosen screws, causing huge risk of arc and fire. That's why RV electrical devices have the punch-down connectors and self-contained boxes that are made to hold the wires in-place.

Terrible advise. The push in type receptacles barely hold the wires in, and barely make contact with the wire, all of that is in a fixed installation in a house. In a motorhome it would fail rather quickly. The push in receptacles are only rated to accept 14 gauge wire, and will not accept 12 gauge, and the contacts for the plug are simply a bent over piece of metal that quickly looses its tension.


Charles

Actually, the brass spring tab is only half of the contact area. It pushes the wire against a much larger piece of metal. There is certainly much more area than is obtainable in a punch-down connector.

This type of connection was invented when aluminum wire was introduced in the 1970's. It was discovered that aluminum wire expands and contracts much more than copper and that movement would cause it to loosen under screw connections. It needed a spring-type connection to hold it over many years of temperature cycles, which is not unlike the vibration environment in RVs.

Some more info here:
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Electrical_Outlet_Backwired.php#Back_Wire_Details

[Lynnmor]

Blacklane wrote:
If you're going to install residential outlets in an RV, at least don't use the screws on the side: use the spring-loaded quick connect kind. Vibration can loosen screws, causing huge risk of arc and fire. That's why RV electrical devices have the punch-down connectors and self-contained boxes that are made to hold the wires in-place.

Is that why my twist-lock power inlet had completely loose screws? Has anyone ever checked those screws? They are right there in the wall waiting to light things up. I replaced the ridiculous thing with hard wiring the first year when I found the fire hazard.

I don't agree with the wires coming loose when under screws, there are numerous screw connections in a trailer. Properly tightened, my opinion is that they will be just fine. The problem is cheap and easy installations and sloppy workmanship. The self-contained devices only exist to save money for the manufacturer.

[CharlesinGA]

Blacklane wrote:
If you're going to install residential outlets in an RV, at least don't use the screws on the side: use the spring-loaded quick connect kind. Vibration can loosen screws, causing huge risk of arc and fire. That's why RV electrical devices have the punch-down connectors and self-contained boxes that are made to hold the wires in-place.

Terrible advise. The push in type receptacles barely hold the wires in, and barely make contact with the wire, all of that is in a fixed installation in a house. In a motorhome it would fail rather quickly. The push in receptacles are only rated to accept 14 gauge wire, and will not accept 12 gauge, and the contacts for the plug are simply a bent over piece of metal that quickly looses its tension.

Best to use a commercial quality backwire unit that you push the wire into and then tighten up a screw, which draws up a serrated or knurled plate to pinch the wire into place. Check the screw tightness once a year like you should with the entire electrical system.

With the commercial quality receptacle, no sense using the 20 amp version, as the inside metal parts and contacts for the plug are exactly the same as the 20 amp, just with a 15 amp style face plate installed.

Charles

[Blacklane]

If you're going to install residential outlets in an RV, at least don't use the screws on the side: use the spring-loaded quick connect kind. Vibration can loosen screws, causing huge risk of arc and fire. That's why RV electrical devices have the punch-down connectors and self-contained boxes that are made to hold the wires in-place.

[myredracer]

wa8yxm wrote:
Many times I have stated (Usually in electric heater threads) that I do not trust those Quick-Box type outlets (The kind shown in the original post.

NOW you can see, with your own eyes, WHY.

When you and maybe a few others on the RV forums have said this, I was skeptical at first and believed that because they are CSA/UL approved there is nothing to worry about. What I hadn't appreciated in the beginning is how easy it is for a factory to mess up installing them and what the lack of inspections to ensure compliance with the NEC can do.

Besides that, if you look closely at these SCDs, a round copper wire is pushed into contact with a relatively thin "stab" type terminal while a conventional residential type recept. with side-wired screw terminals has a much greater surface contact area. In this regard, I would say a side-wired recept. (in an outlet box) would be a good upgrade for any locations that will have more than just occasional, short duration, intermittent loads like say in a kitchen and esp. for a recept. that will have an electric heater plugged in. I don't know (yet) if these are designed, tested and certified for continuous duty. For the few amount of recepts. RVs have and the little time needed to pull one out and inspect it, it can't hurt to maybe spot check at least a few of them.

[wa8yxm]

Many times I have stated (Usually in electric heater threads) that I do not trust those Quick-Box type outlets (The kind shown in the original post.

NOW you can see, with your own eyes, WHY.

For electric heaters I have a pair of special outlets.. Let me tell you what is different about 'em

1: They are standard Resigential type, in a box, not the "Quick Box" version
2: THey are fed with 12ga, not 14ga
3: They are 15/20 amp outlets (T-Shaped neutral)
4: Each has a circuit breaker all to itself, NOTHING else on the circuit
4b: One of them it's a 20 amp (Since that's the rating) The other 15 (Ran out of 20's)

I am about to install an 2nd Kitchen Circuit.. This will be two 15/20 amp outlets (one GFCI the other chained off it) fed with 12ga off a dedicated breaker as well.

[azrving]

myredracer wrote:
At least it's still holding together, lol! This is what I found in ours after a little over 2K miles from Indiana to our dealer. Don't know if any other welds could have been similar since we no longer own the TT (for good reasons). Quality control is just fine out there...

rjxj wrote:
Everything in my rv is top notch

It's like asking....."Did you have sex with that woman"......Ah well ummm, did you weld that rv....well um yeah, define weld. lol

[myredracer]

dup.

[myredracer]

At least it's still holding together, lol! This is what I found in ours after a little over 2K miles from Indiana to our dealer. Don't know if any other welds could have been similar since we no longer own the TT (for good reasons). Quality control is just fine out there...

rjxj wrote:
Everything in my rv is top notch

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Let's not discuss the actual issue.

OH! NO!

Let's QUIBBLE over insignificant garbage...

I fell out of bed in a bad mood. Sue me.

[azrving]

Everything in my rv is top notch



I also take pictures of not only my junk but others too.

They'll hold er tagether one way or the tother.



Close enough, NEXT!



Honey, was that a mouse or a squirrel running across the kitchen counter? 🙂



I'm not giving mine up, I love it!! :h

[fj12ryder]

Double post. Oops.

[fj12ryder]

dougrainer wrote:
Licensed Electricians on staff? HOW many residential/commercial electrical work is actually looked at by the Licensed Electrician? I doubt the Licensed Electrician will go behind EVERY receptacle that is installed by his crew and verifies that it is done correctly. Now, I find your claim suspect. Why? because how many people take pics of outlets and just happen to state that I had a previous other brand with the same problem? I took pics? Now, to claim that because you have seen a few, the ENTIRE industry is suspect????????? Sorry, you are just bring up a non issue. Doug

Maybe your definition of "Licensed" and mine differ, but to legally do electrical work for someone in Missouri, you have be licensed in Missouri. There is no statewide licensing but you have to be licensed in the area where you are working.

"Now, I find your claim suspect." If you're mistaken about this where else have you erred?

"Tens of thousands"? That could work out to 5 units a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for 20 years. Would that fall under the heading of "Exaggeration for effect"? 🙂

[Dusty_R]

Licensed Electricians on staff? HOW many residential/commercial electrical work is actually looked at by the Licensed Electrician? I doubt the Licensed Electrician will go behind EVERY receptacle that is installed by his crew and verifies that it is done correctly. Now, I find your claim suspect. Why? because how many people take pics of outlets and just happen to state that I had a previous other brand with the same problem? I took pics? Now, to claim that because you have seen a few, the ENTIRE industry is suspect????????? Sorry, you are just bring up a non issue. Doug

It's a Licensed Electrician that doing the work. Or an Electrical Apprentics that doing the work. If it's an Apprentice, he/she is being watched over by a Journeyman. No one else is allowed to.


Dusty

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Thought I was joking when I visited the Fleetwood assembly plant in the LA Basin and "Sid" was on the phone engaged in a "To The Death" argument with his battery vendor on a couple dollar increase in the price of the batteries?

These people would kill over a nickel.

EVERY LAST 20 amp spec receptacle in Quicksilver and in the umbilical house has #10 wire by #6 spade terminals soldered on.

When houses pull up their skirts and amble on down the road is when changes to specifications would occur.

RVIA reminds me of the Battery Council International

A Company union

I wouldn't plug a cell phone charger into a ---- receptacle like that. I value my life.