Honda's new EU2200i model...

[robert_at_honda]

Read all about it here.



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I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.
Robert@Honda

[burningman]

All this discussion about whether the cables are connected first and one power source is fired up before starting the Honda isn’t the issue, everyone knows that’s how you do it.
I have connected two already-running EU2000s before. I don’t remember why or if I meant to (it was about ten years ago). There was a bit of a zap but nothing happened. They kept working.
I still don’t recommend it, but there was no disaster.

If I owned a Yamaha parallel-capable generator I’d connect them and see how they played.
I’m willing to bet they’d work perfectly. I’ve yet to hear an accurate and solid reason why an EU2000 wouldn’t sync to a PSW inverter.

[ctilsie242]

I have not heard about a Honda generator timing belt breaking. The most common failure mode I see is bad gas.

While looking at class "B"s, if I wind up with one that has an "engine generator" (i.e. an alternator under a different name), I definitely will be buying a pair of these. I'm glad Honda has a fuel valve now, so I can run them dry and not worry about gas in the carb when I store them.

[SidecarFlip]

road-runner wrote:

robert_at_honda wrote:

Yes, if the timing belt should break, the valves will indeed collide with the piston.

For discussion's sake, has anybody reading this thread ever heard of an eu-generator's timing belt breaking? I have to say I fear the plastic camshaft more than the timing belt, yet all I hear about these engines is that they just keep going without failures. I'm also no fan of the plastic intake manifold in the Honda Fit, and never heard of any failures there, either. For a real-life comparison, a few years back there were a lot of Onan Microquiet generators manufactured with bad valve springs. A lot of engines were ruined as a result, with no timing belt involved.

I absolutely don't like the plastic parts, but what matters to me in the end is the overall reliability.

I tossed a rod on a GC motor which had the cogged rubber cam belt. The belt didn't break but the connecting rod big end when through the case. Didn't know they had a plastic cam shaft. Mine had a metal cam, rubber belt and no Honda refused to warrant it. That piece of power equipment no sports a HF predator.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

That's why I ask questions - two helpful answers 🙂

[SoundGuy]

road-runner wrote:
For discussion's sake, has anybody reading this thread ever heard of an eu-generator's timing belt breaking? I have to say I fear the plastic camshaft more than the timing belt, yet all I hear about these engines is that they just keep going without failures.

I absolutely don't like the plastic parts, but what matters to me in the end is the overall reliability.

No different than anyone else I wondered about those plastic camshafts before buying an EU2000i but with hundreds of thousands if not millions of these gensets in use around the world I concluded Honda engineers must know what they're doing. As it turned out I never had a lick of trouble with the 2 units I owned, one manufactured in Japan and the other in Thailand, and wouldn't have any hesitation buying another if it fit my needs. :B

[road-runner]

robert_at_honda wrote:

Yes, if the timing belt should break, the valves will indeed collide with the piston.

For discussion's sake, has anybody reading this thread ever heard of an eu-generator's timing belt breaking? I have to say I fear the plastic camshaft more than the timing belt, yet all I hear about these engines is that they just keep going without failures. I'm also no fan of the plastic intake manifold in the Honda Fit, and never heard of any failures there, either. For a real-life comparison, a few years back there were a lot of Onan Microquiet generators manufactured with bad valve springs. A lot of engines were ruined as a result, with no timing belt involved.

I absolutely don't like the plastic parts, but what matters to me in the end is the overall reliability.

[robert_at_honda]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
A question for Robert, if I may...

These motors are overhead cam, meaning they have a camshaft timing belt.

If a belt should break...

Is this an interference grade motor...?

Yes, if the timing belt should break, the valves will indeed collide with the piston.

[road-runner]

ktmrfs wrote:


If voltages are not the same, then the lower voltage inverter will act as a power sync (load) to the other inverter. and results may not be very nice. they will have to come to the same voltage or one or the other is going to suffer.

I'd have disagree with this. A traditional battery powered, parallel-capable h-bridge inverter will act as a load and dump the absorbed power into the battery. I certainly don't know what the internal technology of Honda's inverter is, and I sure as heck can't imagine where it would dump the absorbed power. The only thing I can think of is to heat up and destroy itself, and it's apparent it doesn't do that.

[ktmrfs]

road-runner wrote:
With the Honda eu-series generators, there's no phase issue as the second one that gets fired up places itself on line in phase with the first. There is an amplitude issue, however, as the Hondas stand alone providing a higher output voltage than other brands. With mixed brands I'd expect the Honda to carry the full load until its output gets pulled down to the other brand's no-load voltage. Paralleling with an inverter that's not designed for back-feeding is just asking to fry the inverter.

this assumes that the parallel cables are connected, and generators are fired up one at a time. It also means that the inverter sections are not completely independent and the one starting up will phase and amplitude sync with the running one as it starts up instead of relying on it's internal time base and amplitude section. Something that is very easy to do.

If voltages are not the same, then the lower voltage inverter will act as a power sync (load) to the other inverter. and results may not be very nice. they will have to come to the same voltage or one or the other is going to suffer.


What happens with a honda if both are running THEN the parallel cables are plugged in??

Never done that, but I'll bet someone has.

[road-runner]

With the Honda eu-series generators, there's no phase issue as the second one that gets fired up places itself on line in phase with the first. There is an amplitude issue, however, as the Hondas stand alone providing a higher output voltage than other brands. With mixed brands I'd expect the Honda to carry the full load until its output gets pulled down to the other brand's no-load voltage. Paralleling with an inverter that's not designed for back-feeding is just asking to fry the inverter.

[ktmrfs]

SoundGuy wrote:

burningman wrote:
The EU2000 can usually handle an A/C running, just not the compressor start-up.

Sure it can - Micro-Air Easy Start Soft Starter Kit ... and the new EU2200i would handle this task even better. :B

well, absolutely, sort of. In my case, yes with the micro air it easily will handle startup under every condition I have experienced.

And the startup is smooth, no grunt, no fuss even at 4500Ft on a very hot day. However, you still have the issue of long term overload. Not an issue at lower temps and lower altitudes.

But I found out that at 4500ft and 90F, after about 10 minutes the poor honda 2000 would trip out on overload. Now looking at temp, barometric pressure and humidity, my density altitude was about 6000ft.

so, it was drag out the other honda and parallel them.

But since it would run for 10-15 minutes before overload, I'll bet the 2200VA unit would probably get me from "almost adequate" to "barely adequate". and would make the slick ticket.

[SoundGuy]

burningman wrote:
The EU2000 can usually handle an A/C running, just not the compressor start-up.

Sure it can - Micro-Air Easy Start Soft Starter Kit ... and the new EU2200i would handle this task even better. :B

[ktmrfs]

SidecarFlip wrote:

burningman wrote:
I have tried paralleling combos of EU1000, EU2000 and EU3000 Hondas and in actual practice they all play well together. And no, the smaller one doesn’t go into overload as soon as a big load is turned on. I can’t imagine any problem running a 2000 with a 2200.
I’m pretty sure you can even parallel an EU with a pure sine wave inverter but I haven’t (yet) tried it. As many - but maybe not all - of you know, when paralleling these things the 120VAC outputs of each are simply connected directly together. There’s no other magic synching signal, the parallel operation ports are only connected directly to the regular 120VAC outlets. An EU just synchs up to another 120VAC source, it doesn’t necessarily have to originate from another Honda. 60hz 120VAC is 60hz 120VAC.

I might try that out because that might be a good way to run an A/C off a single EU2000.
I’d like to try running a battery charger off the Honda to top off a pair of deep-cycles, which are paralleled with the Honda to provide the extra power to start the A/C. The EU2000 can usually handle an A/C running, just not the compressor start-up.

In actuality, it don't even matter what brands they are. All the parallel kit 'sees' is the output so if they are both PSW units, should make no difference at all.

Well, not as simple as it seems. there are 3 things that must be controlled when paralleling, frequency, phase and amplitude.

Frequency and amplitude between two inverter generators is likely to be pretty close under no load conditions. fractions of a hertz and maybe a few volts amplitude. something that can be synced together pretty quick and easy with good control circuitry.

Phase is another story, it is completely arbitrary and uncontrolled and will be between 0 degrees and +/- 180 degrees apart.

That is the big one that needs to be brought into sync very quickly, and very soon frequency and amplitude.

The easy case is with one running generator paralleled to another non running generator. The first running generator can easily be designed to control the second generator to sync the phase frequency and amplitude as it fires up.

And that's the normal (at least for me) starting procedure.

The second case is paralleling two running generators. This is a harder thing to do.

If both generators are running when they are paralled they do have to have a way to sync and phase the output voltage and frequency and amplitude and stay on the same exact frequency in phase and same amplitude and do it pretty quick, within a few cycles.



I've never tried unhooking the parallel cable between two hondas, fired them up then connected the parallel cable to see what happens. A well designed control circuit likely could accomidate this case as well. in the case of inverter generators that the inverter control circuit for generating the PSW output is designed to bring two units into sync for phase, frequency and amplitude with individual startup.
A stable control circuit needs to be able to have enough range to swing all three parameters into control limits anyway, so designing too be paralled after startup wouldn't be that hard to do at all.

If the frequency is off, or phasing is off and it stays that way it's an easy way to impending disaster.



Hooking one in parallel to a PSW inverter? question is will the generator lock to the inverter or try to get it to move? the inverter probably is not expecting to be paralleled with something else and likely tries to run off it's own internal frequency reference. and it only takes fractions of a hertz variation to yield problems. likewise with phase and amplitude.

worth a try, but expecting it to be universally successful is not something I would expect.

[SidecarFlip]

burningman wrote:
I have tried paralleling combos of EU1000, EU2000 and EU3000 Hondas and in actual practice they all play well together. And no, the smaller one doesn’t go into overload as soon as a big load is turned on. I can’t imagine any problem running a 2000 with a 2200.
I’m pretty sure you can even parallel an EU with a pure sine wave inverter but I haven’t (yet) tried it. As many - but maybe not all - of you know, when paralleling these things the 120VAC outputs of each are simply connected directly together. There’s no other magic synching signal, the parallel operation ports are only connected directly to the regular 120VAC outlets. An EU just synchs up to another 120VAC source, it doesn’t necessarily have to originate from another Honda. 60hz 120VAC is 60hz 120VAC.

I might try that out because that might be a good way to run an A/C off a single EU2000.
I’d like to try running a battery charger off the Honda to top off a pair of deep-cycles, which are paralleled with the Honda to provide the extra power to start the A/C. The EU2000 can usually handle an A/C running, just not the compressor start-up.

In actuality, it don't even matter what brands they are. All the parallel kit 'sees' is the output so if they are both PSW units, should make no difference at all.