2005 F 250 Super Duty Question...Long Ramble

[Brantime]

Greeting All! I have a '05 F 250 Diesel that has always been serviced, checked, and kept up, and currently runs and sounds great. In April '15, we were coming home from Georgia to East Texas, and in Tuscaloosa, the Engine Oil Cooler went out. Had it replaced at the Ford dealership. I have been "Reluctant" to take any long trips since the repair...is there other problems on the horizon in correlation to the EOC being replaced? Love the truck...but it does have 194,000 miles on it now! Is it time, lol! Thanks for

[Brantime]

I would like to take a moment to say Thanks for all of you that sent me pertinent information to the original posting...
All the information is helping educate me on the diesel experience, lol!
I have had this 6.0 for some time and It has been a great workhorse for us!
When I had my truck in the shop, they're were several New Dodge Diesels, as well as a couple Fords being repaired.
Again, thanks for your help and willingness to share time and knowledge!

[Lantley]

shadows4 wrote:

Flashman wrote:

blofgren wrote:

rowekmr wrote:
Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

It has been said that the detuned version in the E Series vans were better too; as you can see in my earlier posts our 2 at work definitely blow this myth out of the water. I would actually say they have been worse than the F-450 and F-550 crew cab dumps that we have (and had) and they have been far from stellar themselves.

The other issue that it has caused for us at work is cutting into production big time. Guys waiting for tow trucks, switching tools and materials into loaner and rental trucks and then back countless numbers of times takes its toll on productivity. We actually talked several times that these trucks could very well put a small or even mid size company out of business with the downtime and huge repair bills. And these trucks have been maintained VERY well with oil changes every 5k kms (3k miles) and more than recommended fuel filter, coolant changes, etc. all with Motorcraft filters. These issues are NOT related to lack of maintenance.

Well said.

A powerful condemnation of the Ford 6.0. And of the fact that Ford keep selling them for years after it became known how bad they were.

The real mystery was why people keep buying them??

As someone posted before - battered wife syndrome.

Some people just prefer a better truck. Even with the known problems I would take a Ford 6.0 over a Dodge or Ram any day.

Really?? I'd rather just walk...LOL
Actually I'd take a 6.0 over walking.
I have past on a few 6.0 when truck shopping. I passed on a nice rear bucket seat Excursion due to the 6.0.
I simply would not own a 6.0 at this point. There are just to many better options to become part of the known 6.0 mess.
The 6.0 is old news I can't believe how much we still discuss it.
There are no 6.0 bargains to be had. You could not pay me to take one. OK maybe you could pay me, particularly if it kept me from walking.

[blofgren]

shadows4 wrote:

Flashman wrote:

blofgren wrote:

rowekmr wrote:
Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

It has been said that the detuned version in the E Series vans were better too; as you can see in my earlier posts our 2 at work definitely blow this myth out of the water. I would actually say they have been worse than the F-450 and F-550 crew cab dumps that we have (and had) and they have been far from stellar themselves.

The other issue that it has caused for us at work is cutting into production big time. Guys waiting for tow trucks, switching tools and materials into loaner and rental trucks and then back countless numbers of times takes its toll on productivity. We actually talked several times that these trucks could very well put a small or even mid size company out of business with the downtime and huge repair bills. And these trucks have been maintained VERY well with oil changes every 5k kms (3k miles) and more than recommended fuel filter, coolant changes, etc. all with Motorcraft filters. These issues are NOT related to lack of maintenance.

Well said.

A powerful condemnation of the Ford 6.0. And of the fact that Ford keep selling them for years after it became known how bad they were.

The real mystery was why people keep buying them??

As someone posted before - battered wife syndrome.

Some people just prefer a better truck. Even with the known problems I would take a Ford 6.0 over a Dodge or Ram any day.

Now that I see where you work I now understand your comment much more. With all due respect, though, to say a Ford 6.0 is better than a Dodge or Ram is VERY narrow minded (especially a Cummins powered Ram). Simply put, the 6.0 was a huge black eye on Ford and I owned one. The two Ford trucks I owned before that, a 1994 F-150 XLT 5.8L and a 1996 F-250 XL S/C 4x4 7.3L 5 speed manual were both excellent trucks. My 2003 F-350 6.0L not so much. And my family bleeds blue; my grandfather was general sales manager in a Ford dealership for many years. I was set on buying another Super Duty, but when I started to read the issues with the 6.7L and looked at the complexity of them at work I simply could not do it again. I am VERY happy with the truck I chose.:)

BTW if I could give any advice it would be to keep your 7.3L; it is a MUCH better truck than any 6.0L and is very desirable. As a matter of fact I would still consider a cherry 7.3L in a Lariat crew cab dually 4x4.

[rowekmr]

You had me up to your last statement. I can understand you don't like the engine, the reputation or your experience but why ask/attack others for owning or liking them? Can't we all like different trucks for different reasons. I notice whenever someone asks any 6.0L questions the threads starts with the trucks then the insults sling then the thread gets closed down. We need a little more decorum here.

Flashman wrote:

blofgren wrote:

rowekmr wrote:
Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

It has been said that the detuned version in the E Series vans were better too; as you can see in my earlier posts our 2 at work definitely blow this myth out of the water. I would actually say they have been worse than the F-450 and F-550 crew cab dumps that we have (and had) and they have been far from stellar themselves.

The other issue that it has caused for us at work is cutting into production big time. Guys waiting for tow trucks, switching tools and materials into loaner and rental trucks and then back countless numbers of times takes its toll on productivity. We actually talked several times that these trucks could very well put a small or even mid size company out of business with the downtime and huge repair bills. And these trucks have been maintained VERY well with oil changes every 5k kms (3k miles) and more than recommended fuel filter, coolant changes, etc. all with Motorcraft filters. These issues are NOT related to lack of maintenance.

Well said.

A powerful condemnation of the Ford 6.0. And of the fact that Ford keep selling them for years after it became known how bad they were.

The real mystery was why people keep buying them??

As someone posted before - battered wife syndrome.

[Flashman]

shadows4 wrote:

Flashman wrote:

blofgren wrote:

rowekmr wrote:
Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

It has been said that the detuned version in the E Series vans were better too; as you can see in my earlier posts our 2 at work definitely blow this myth out of the water. I would actually say they have been worse than the F-450 and F-550 crew cab dumps that we have (and had) and they have been far from stellar themselves.

The other issue that it has caused for us at work is cutting into production big time. Guys waiting for tow trucks, switching tools and materials into loaner and rental trucks and then back countless numbers of times takes its toll on productivity. We actually talked several times that these trucks could very well put a small or even mid size company out of business with the downtime and huge repair bills. And these trucks have been maintained VERY well with oil changes every 5k kms (3k miles) and more than recommended fuel filter, coolant changes, etc. all with Motorcraft filters. These issues are NOT related to lack of maintenance.

Well said.

A powerful condemnation of the Ford 6.0. And of the fact that Ford keep selling them for years after it became known how bad they were.

The real mystery was why people keep buying them??

As someone posted before - battered wife syndrome.

Some people just prefer a better truck. Even with the known problems I would take a Ford 6.0 over a Dodge or Ram any day.

Of course you would. There is no cure for ##$$%.

Oh well I used to be in your camp. Then Ford really burned me out of the factory warranty on my Exploder

Never Ford again.

[shadows4]

Flashman wrote:

blofgren wrote:

rowekmr wrote:
Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

It has been said that the detuned version in the E Series vans were better too; as you can see in my earlier posts our 2 at work definitely blow this myth out of the water. I would actually say they have been worse than the F-450 and F-550 crew cab dumps that we have (and had) and they have been far from stellar themselves.

The other issue that it has caused for us at work is cutting into production big time. Guys waiting for tow trucks, switching tools and materials into loaner and rental trucks and then back countless numbers of times takes its toll on productivity. We actually talked several times that these trucks could very well put a small or even mid size company out of business with the downtime and huge repair bills. And these trucks have been maintained VERY well with oil changes every 5k kms (3k miles) and more than recommended fuel filter, coolant changes, etc. all with Motorcraft filters. These issues are NOT related to lack of maintenance.

Well said.

A powerful condemnation of the Ford 6.0. And of the fact that Ford keep selling them for years after it became known how bad they were.

The real mystery was why people keep buying them??

As someone posted before - battered wife syndrome.

Some people just prefer a better truck. Even with the known problems I would take a Ford 6.0 over a Dodge or Ram any day.

[Flashman]

blofgren wrote:

rowekmr wrote:
Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

It has been said that the detuned version in the E Series vans were better too; as you can see in my earlier posts our 2 at work definitely blow this myth out of the water. I would actually say they have been worse than the F-450 and F-550 crew cab dumps that we have (and had) and they have been far from stellar themselves.

The other issue that it has caused for us at work is cutting into production big time. Guys waiting for tow trucks, switching tools and materials into loaner and rental trucks and then back countless numbers of times takes its toll on productivity. We actually talked several times that these trucks could very well put a small or even mid size company out of business with the downtime and huge repair bills. And these trucks have been maintained VERY well with oil changes every 5k kms (3k miles) and more than recommended fuel filter, coolant changes, etc. all with Motorcraft filters. These issues are NOT related to lack of maintenance.

Well said.

A powerful condemnation of the Ford 6.0. And of the fact that Ford keep selling them for years after it became known how bad they were.

The real mystery was why people keep buying them??

As someone posted before - battered wife syndrome.

[blofgren]

rowekmr wrote:
Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

It has been said that the detuned version in the E Series vans were better too; as you can see in my earlier posts our 2 at work definitely blow this myth out of the water. I would actually say they have been worse than the F-450 and F-550 crew cab dumps that we have (and had) and they have been far from stellar themselves.

The other issue that it has caused for us at work is cutting into production big time. Guys waiting for tow trucks, switching tools and materials into loaner and rental trucks and then back countless numbers of times takes its toll on productivity. We actually talked several times that these trucks could very well put a small or even mid size company out of business with the downtime and huge repair bills. And these trucks have been maintained VERY well with oil changes every 5k kms (3k miles) and more than recommended fuel filter, coolant changes, etc. all with Motorcraft filters. These issues are NOT related to lack of maintenance.

[rowekmr]

Yeah I have heard from a few shops that the Internationals 6.0l in the MDT that didn't have the hotter tuning by Ford had a much better track record. I also think they had less or none of the emission equipment but not sure.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

Not according to Ford's own internal email documents that were presented in court. :E According to Ford "they" went over spec by a bunch with cylinder pressure.

[FishOnOne]

blofgren wrote:

mabynack wrote:
Background: The 6.0 was built by Navistar for Ford. Ford sued Navistar because the 6.0 had the most expensive recalls of any engine Ford has ever put into its vehicles. Recall costs per unit are around 10,000. Navistar responded to Ford's suit by saying that they had designed the engine to be a 300 HP engine and Ford had retuned it to 340 HP to beat its competitors. The internal components of the engine weren't designed for the additional pressures and they failed.

This was the first generation of diesels to use Catalytic converters and pollution controls, so a lot of the issues were growing pains. One of the components that frequently fails is the Exhaust Gas Recirculation Cooler. The EGR injects small amounts of burned exhaust back into the combustions chamber to reduce pollution and allow the engine to run cooler under heavy loads. The cooler uses engine coolant to cool the 1400 degree exhaust before it's injected back into the engine. The cooler sometimes gets plugged with casting sand leftover from manufacturing the engines and blocks coolant from entering the cooler. At that point the EGR cooler can melt, allowing engine coolant to enter the combustion chambers. Small amounts of coolant in the combustion chamber will appear as white smoke under load and you can see bubbles in the coolant tank. If the hole gets too large and allows too much coolant into the combustion chamber you get a hydro lock condition that can bend connecting rods and blow the tops off pistons.

Another problem with the EGR Cooler is caused by using an improper coolant. The high heat from the EGR cooler can cause coolant to form silicate solids which will also clog the cooler. Ford/Caterpillar make a special coolant that will not form silicate when exposed to the high heat.

Coolant travels through the engine oil cooler on its way to the EGR cooler, so if the EGR cooler gets plugged, the engine oil cooler stops working.

The engine also uses high pressure oil to actuate the injectors. The pressures can run over 3500 psi. It's very important to keep clean oil in the engine. The High Pressure Oil System has O-rings that will eventually leak. They're located under the valve covers, so the leak is internal to the engine and you won't notice any oil on the outside of the engine. The engine gradually looses power.

Another problem is the Fuel Injector Control Module (FICM). I've had to replace two of them on my truck. One of Ford's software updates increased the voltage that the FICM operates at in order to increase the temperature and speed the warm up. The FICM wasn't designed for the additional voltage and it would melt the solder connections. I believe that Ford changed the voltage back to the intended level on a subsequent software update. There are companies that sell remanufactured FICMs that have high temperature solder connections.

Another issue was the fuel pressure regulator springs. The original springs would get weak over time and the engine would loose power. The springs on my truck broke and the truck would randomly quit when cruising down the road. The spring is located at the top of the engine near or on the fuel filter canister and is fairly easy to change. Unfortunately the knot heads at the local Ford dealer decided I needed my Turbocharger cleaned and charged me $1300 in addition to the $80 for the spring. I told them it was a fuel pressure issue, but they went ahead and cleaned the turbo anyway. That's the last time I'll ever do business with them because that was the third time in a row they did unauthorized work on my truck and charged me for it.

Ford purchased some of the earlier trucks back from consumers due to the extensive recall issues.

Ford no longer purchases engines from Navistar. They build their own and they use a different design.

Yes you have covered off some of the issues; unfortunately there are more.

You can likely expect to put a set of injectors in your truck in the fairly near future depending on how long it ran with low fuel pressure because that kills them along with oil system problems, over voltage from FICM, etc.

Most of the 6.0 problems were related to the emissions equipment and not from the factory tuning.

The coolant side of the EGR cooler doesn't get clogged, but the Oil Cooler does and starves the EGR cooler coolant causing the EGR to rupture.

Cracked pistons or bent connecting rods are very very rare failures. Coolant leaks in the combustion chamber typically causes head gasket failures it if problem is ignored.

I agree with the fuel pressure spring as a source of injector failures. 05 and up have very few injector failures.

Cold running issues were addressed by a inductive heating strategy that used the injector coil to heat the oil inside the injector. The root cause was a valve in the injector would exhibit bore polishing and create stiction. Many injectors are corrected by the inductive heat or a oil additive with boron as a friction additive.

The Ford dealer tech cleaning the turbo and charging $1,300 is a good example of Navistar and Fords debacle. Navistar reported that they were getting billed by Ford for misdiagnosed repairs just like mabynack did. The launch of the 6.0 was poorly implemented due to lack of tech training. Many techs were throwing parts at these engines causing major financial friction.

My experience with my 6.0 was actually really good. Seven years and 170k miles that truck cost me only maintenance items. Speaking of maintenance many problems were created from after market oil filers that allowed non filter oil to bypass the filter or the filter would completely fail and clog the entire high pressure oil system. After market fuel filters didn't have the aqua block media and would pass water to the injectors causing failures. Sticking to high quality Motorcraft filers prevented these issues.

[blofgren]

mabynack wrote:
Background: The 6.0 was built by Navistar for Ford. Ford sued Navistar because the 6.0 had the most expensive recalls of any engine Ford has ever put into its vehicles. Recall costs per unit are around 10,000. Navistar responded to Ford's suit by saying that they had designed the engine to be a 300 HP engine and Ford had retuned it to 340 HP to beat its competitors. The internal components of the engine weren't designed for the additional pressures and they failed.

This was the first generation of diesels to use Catalytic converters and pollution controls, so a lot of the issues were growing pains. One of the components that frequently fails is the Exhaust Gas Recirculation Cooler. The EGR injects small amounts of burned exhaust back into the combustions chamber to reduce pollution and allow the engine to run cooler under heavy loads. The cooler uses engine coolant to cool the 1400 degree exhaust before it's injected back into the engine. The cooler sometimes gets plugged with casting sand leftover from manufacturing the engines and blocks coolant from entering the cooler. At that point the EGR cooler can melt, allowing engine coolant to enter the combustion chambers. Small amounts of coolant in the combustion chamber will appear as white smoke under load and you can see bubbles in the coolant tank. If the hole gets too large and allows too much coolant into the combustion chamber you get a hydro lock condition that can bend connecting rods and blow the tops off pistons.

Another problem with the EGR Cooler is caused by using an improper coolant. The high heat from the EGR cooler can cause coolant to form silicate solids which will also clog the cooler. Ford/Caterpillar make a special coolant that will not form silicate when exposed to the high heat.

Coolant travels through the engine oil cooler on its way to the EGR cooler, so if the EGR cooler gets plugged, the engine oil cooler stops working.

The engine also uses high pressure oil to actuate the injectors. The pressures can run over 3500 psi. It's very important to keep clean oil in the engine. The High Pressure Oil System has O-rings that will eventually leak. They're located under the valve covers, so the leak is internal to the engine and you won't notice any oil on the outside of the engine. The engine gradually looses power.

Another problem is the Fuel Injector Control Module (FICM). I've had to replace two of them on my truck. One of Ford's software updates increased the voltage that the FICM operates at in order to increase the temperature and speed the warm up. The FICM wasn't designed for the additional voltage and it would melt the solder connections. I believe that Ford changed the voltage back to the intended level on a subsequent software update. There are companies that sell remanufactured FICMs that have high temperature solder connections.

Another issue was the fuel pressure regulator springs. The original springs would get weak over time and the engine would loose power. The springs on my truck broke and the truck would randomly quit when cruising down the road. The spring is located at the top of the engine near or on the fuel filter canister and is fairly easy to change. Unfortunately the knot heads at the local Ford dealer decided I needed my Turbocharger cleaned and charged me $1300 in addition to the $80 for the spring. I told them it was a fuel pressure issue, but they went ahead and cleaned the turbo anyway. That's the last time I'll ever do business with them because that was the third time in a row they did unauthorized work on my truck and charged me for it.

Ford purchased some of the earlier trucks back from consumers due to the extensive recall issues.

Ford no longer purchases engines from Navistar. They build their own and they use a different design.

Yes you have covered off some of the issues; unfortunately there are more.

You can likely expect to put a set of injectors in your truck in the fairly near future depending on how long it ran with low fuel pressure because that kills them along with oil system problems, over voltage from FICM, etc.

[mabynack]

Background: The 6.0 was built by Navistar for Ford. Ford sued Navistar because the 6.0 had the most expensive recalls of any engine Ford has ever put into its vehicles. Recall costs per unit are around 10,000. Navistar responded to Ford's suit by saying that they had designed the engine to be a 300 HP engine and Ford had retuned it to 340 HP to beat its competitors. The internal components of the engine weren't designed for the additional pressures and they failed.

This was the first generation of diesels to use Catalytic converters and pollution controls, so a lot of the issues were growing pains. One of the components that frequently fails is the Exhaust Gas Recirculation Cooler. The EGR injects small amounts of burned exhaust back into the combustions chamber to reduce pollution and allow the engine to run cooler under heavy loads. The cooler uses engine coolant to cool the 1400 degree exhaust before it's injected back into the engine. The cooler sometimes gets plugged with casting sand leftover from manufacturing the engines and blocks coolant from entering the cooler. At that point the EGR cooler can melt, allowing engine coolant to enter the combustion chambers. Small amounts of coolant in the combustion chamber will appear as white smoke under load and you can see bubbles in the coolant tank. If the hole gets too large and allows too much coolant into the combustion chamber you get a hydro lock condition that can bend connecting rods and blow the tops off pistons.

Another problem with the EGR Cooler is caused by using an improper coolant. The high heat from the EGR cooler can cause coolant to form silicate solids which will also clog the cooler. Ford/Caterpillar make a special coolant that will not form silicate when exposed to the high heat.

Coolant travels through the engine oil cooler on its way to the EGR cooler, so if the EGR cooler gets plugged, the engine oil cooler stops working.

The engine also uses high pressure oil to actuate the injectors. The pressures can run over 3500 psi. It's very important to keep clean oil in the engine. The High Pressure Oil System has O-rings that will eventually leak. They're located under the valve covers, so the leak is internal to the engine and you won't notice any oil on the outside of the engine. The engine gradually looses power.

Another problem is the Fuel Injector Control Module (FICM). I've had to replace two of them on my truck. One of Ford's software updates increased the voltage that the FICM operates at in order to increase the temperature and speed the warm up. The FICM wasn't designed for the additional voltage and it would melt the solder connections. I believe that Ford changed the voltage back to the intended level on a subsequent software update. There are companies that sell remanufactured FICMs that have high temperature solder connections.

Another issue was the fuel pressure regulator springs. The original springs would get weak over time and the engine would loose power. The springs on my truck broke and the truck would randomly quit when cruising down the road. The spring is located at the top of the engine near or on the fuel filter canister and is fairly easy to change. Unfortunately the knot heads at the local Ford dealer decided I needed my Turbocharger cleaned and charged me $1300 in addition to the $80 for the spring. I told them it was a fuel pressure issue, but they went ahead and cleaned the turbo anyway. That's the last time I'll ever do business with them because that was the third time in a row they did unauthorized work on my truck and charged me for it.

Ford purchased some of the earlier trucks back from consumers due to the extensive recall issues.

Ford no longer purchases engines from Navistar. They build their own and they use a different design.

[blofgren]

rowekmr wrote:
We had a 2014 or 2015 F550 6.7L with special bed on it that has been in and out of our motor maintenance. Actually right now I think it is and have heard that our city might be switching to gassers now. I personally drove it many times and didn't have any problems with it but I let it warm up when its cold, take it easy until the temps are in the normal range. I try to drive it longer when it is regenerating.

If I followed your logic I would think the 6.7l MUST be bad because it is always in the shop and I hear all the other drivers complaining that it takes a sec to start (glow plugs), smell fumes and it smokes (regen) and they hear a whine sometimes (turbo). I am more inclined to say operator error coupled with maintenance errors (they don't use dealership). I have worked for several companies that had fleet vehicles and my experience is the drivers dog them out, the mechanics do general maintenance but not always have the up to date info, TSB and computer flashes that the newer trucks have.

I see your point but the 6.0L in question was towed in several times (likely 10-12) not running. It was repaired by our garage, several Ford dealers, and a specialty diesel shop and STILL had endless crappy reliability issues. It was replaced with a F-550 V-10. We have another van exactly like that one that does have slightly higher mileage on it but it is approaching $20k in repairs over the last 3 years or so. This van is slated to be replaced real soon because it is a wallet draining unreliable POS too. We are actually transferring the bodies to new chassis on these because these vehicles are being replaced much sooner than they would have otherwise been with completely new bodies. We are NOT seeing this type of ridiculous reliability and repair bills with any of the Duramax or Cummins powered vehicles that we have. This is also having a very negative effect on our capital replacement program because these 6.0L vehicles are being replaced anywhere between 2-5 years sooner than similar vehicles with different engines, both gas and diesel. We still have a few 7.3L trucks around because they have been so good.

I'm sorry but the 6.0L has MUCH worse reliability than the other 2 brands and the 7.3L.