Big 3 Petition EPA for CAFE Relief

[thomasmnile]

Interesting Reading.........

Not necessarily tow vehicles, but interesting nonetheless.

[ramgunner]

daved9664 wrote:
As a 20 something year old Im happy to see emission regulations. Sure there are some hiccups afterword, but it puts the pressure on manufacturers to create technology that does not destroy our air quality, environment, mine and your children's and grand children's futures. Fossil fuels are an age old technology. Tesla found out how to create electricity out of thin air decades ago.... I think we can find a happy medium where these rich folks can make a few dollars while not destroying the environment. It's way over due for changes like these and Im not sorry if some older folk get upset about "scary changes" if it's for the better.

Just keep in mind that some of those "older folk" have enough experience under their belts to realize several things...

> Not everything the government tells you is true or accurate (lookup "downwinders" who were told there was no danger to them from above-ground nuclear testing). When I was a kid, there were assemblies in school with groups telling us the Earth was going to enter another ice age if we didn't stop polluting. Now, oops, it's warming. Or is it? 11 year solar cycle, natural patterns...

> Follow the money. It will show you who has what agenda.

> The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and funded by unintended consequences. Environmentalists used to love the hydroelectric power plants on the Columbia River. Now they hate them because "they warm the river". They used to love CFB's, and got laws in place to mandate them. Now they hate them. The list goes on.

When you allow government to regulate something, all of these factors come into play - often with the last one being what ends up hurting everyone.

Some of the older folks have been around long enough to know this. It might be wise to listen to them, and try to balance your views.

I've heard from some "enviro-people" that feel no one should have anything bigger than a Prius. When asked about towing a trailer, or living in an RV (which can reduce your carbon footprint), it was actually suggested that "you should have to pay someone with a super clean truck that pays big taxes to offset their emissions to tow it for you, or just leave it where it is".

There is a value to freedom. Some are eager to give up their freedom with the promise that "they" will take care of you. Be careful what you ask for.

[thomasmnile]

wilber1 wrote:

CAFE standards have to be an honest, realistic collaboration between government and industry taking into account what is possible with existing technology. Vehicles that are more fuel efficient are a good thing.

Very well said. Um, you wouldn't be available to run for President of the United States, would you? :B We're a quart low on reasonable and common sense down here............

[RobertRyan]

goducks10 wrote:
I'll take our clean air over this any day.
http://www.scmp.com/topics/beijing-air-pollution

Problem is China is a pretty aggressive dictatorship, that refuse to listen to anyone

[goducks10]

I remember driving thru Los Angeles back in 1979. My eyes were burning. Just went there a few years ago and the air was much more clear. I don't live there but somethings changed.

[wilber1]

Emission regulations have been a good thing, there are twice as many registered vehicles on North American roads than in 1975 but air quality in US and Canadian cities is much better. I park my 2011 CTD in the garage and I can close the door right away. I park my 66 Chrysler 300 in the garage and the fumes are so bad I have to leave the door open for a good 15 minutes to air the place out. The question now is how much better do they really need to get.

CAFE standards have to be an honest, realistic collaboration between government and industry taking into account what is possible with existing technology. Vehicles that are more fuel efficient are a good thing.

[GoPackGo]

I wonder why it wouldn't be a good idea to just freeze the EPA vehicle pollution regs at their present levels. My 2013 doesn't ever smoke, even at startup. There is NO diesel smell coming out of the tailpipe. It has a DPF and uses DEF. Haven't we reached the 90 percent solution ?? It's impossible to get to '0' and still build an affordable (kind of) fossil fuel burning vehicle.

Seems like if every country adopted current US pollution standards the world would be just fine.

[fly-boy]

The EPA has done more to increase poverty and kill jobs in the United States than even the War on Poverty has done. Both are utter failures when you look at the cost/benefit ratio.

How this economy could grow, put people back to work, and get people out of poverty and off the government dole if we simply killed the EPA and terminated the War on Poverty.

[thomasmnile]

daved9664 wrote:
Tesla found out how to create electricity out of thin air decades ago....

Tesla, the scientist may have done that, but his namesake auto company and Elon Musk have yet to achieve a profit making electric cars that outside the hype and PT Barnum shill, are appealing to a very narrow(READ: able to afford the price) market. Saw a Tesla Model X in a shopping center parking lot, asked the driver the cost, said he's leasing it. What's the lease payment on a 135K plus vehicle these days?

ICE may be 'old technology' but it's still quite viable, affordable (well maybe for a while longer) to all, and is hardly the source of emissions is was even 40 years ago. And what is to become of all the toxic metals from exotic batteries as they hit the end of their useful lives? I see that as a way bigger threat to the environment than an ICE vehicle's emissions.

[ShinerBock]

RedRocket204 wrote:


Understood. It was the more general statement, below:

ShinerBock wrote:



So you can see why we "older folks" have our doubts about "scary changes" made by the government because we have been around long enough to know that in many cases they do more harm than good.

Which is why I used the word "many" as in "the government males most things worse, but not all". Prime example, out of all the things I listed of them screwing up, safety regulations is the only good one you pointed out.

[RedRocket204]

ShinerBock wrote:

RedRocket204 wrote:

ShinerBock,

Does the same hold true for safety regulations imposed on the car manufactures also causing car prices to increase?

There is give and take.

I believe I mentioned safety regulations causing car prices to increase in my first paragraph that you quoted.

Understood. It was the more general statement, below:

ShinerBock wrote:

daved9664 wrote:
As a 20 something year old Im happy to see emission regulations. Sure there are some hiccups afterword, but it puts the pressure on manufacturers to create technology that does not destroy our air quality, environment, mine and your children's and grand children's futures. Fossil fuels are an age old technology. Tesla found out how to create electricity out of thin air decades ago.... I think we can find a happy medium where these rich folks can make a few dollars while not destroying the environment. It's way over due for changes like these and Im not sorry if some older folk get upset about "scary changes" if it's for the better.

So you can see why we "older folks" have our doubts about "scary changes" made by the government because we have been around long enough to know that in many cases they do more harm than good.

[ShinerBock]

RedRocket204 wrote:

ShinerBock,

Does the same hold true for safety regulations imposed on the car manufactures also causing car prices to increase?

There is give and take.

I believe I mentioned safety regulations causing car prices to increase in my first paragraph that you quoted.

[RedRocket204]

ShinerBock wrote:

daved9664 wrote:
As a 20 something year old Im happy to see emission regulations. Sure there are some hiccups afterword, but it puts the pressure on manufacturers to create technology that does not destroy our air quality, environment, mine and your children's and grand children's futures. Fossil fuels are an age old technology. Tesla found out how to create electricity out of thin air decades ago.... I think we can find a happy medium where these rich folks can make a few dollars while not destroying the environment. It's way over due for changes like these and Im not sorry if some older folk get upset about "scary changes" if it's for the better.

Actually many of these technology advancements are at the expense of the consumer. This is one of the major reason why vehicles have gotten so expensive over the past few decades because emissions, fuel economy, and safety regulations imposed on new vehicles have increased exponentially.

Maybe the reason why these "older folks" get upset about "scary changes" made by the government because we have been in this country long enough to know that anything a government bureaucrat regulates actually makes matters worse in many cases because government just reacts instead of looking at long term effects. For instance, take a look at LBJ's "War on Poverty" in the mid 60s where the government actually went out door to door to put people on welfare. Yeah he had "good intentions" to give the black communities an economic equality, but by doing so he de-incentivized self betterment and incentivized single parent households. The is one of the major reasons why single parent households went from about 20% in the mid 60s to about 70% today. It is a fact that a male growing up in a single parent home with absolutely no father figure greatly multiplies a that child's chances of not finishing school, committing crime, going to jail, and dying from violent crime. So what LBJ thought was a great idea at the time turned out to be one of the single most devastating policy effecting the black community in modern times.

Another is government increase in policies regulating and subsidizing higher education in the 90's which is the main reason why tuition and fees have increase dramatically since then. Same with health care. Now it is healthcare insurance by the current President which is why it to has gone up dramatically in the past few years.

So you can see why we "older folks" have our doubts about "scary changes" made by the government because we have been around long enough to know that in many cases they do more harm than good. In this case with diesels, knowing how government bureaucrats operate first hand, I bet that they mostly just looked at continuously reducing emissions without seeing if the reduction in fuel economy actually made engines put out more pollutants in the long run due to having to burn more fuel to do the same work. Then there is the factor of electricity. Is the plant producing the electricity polluting more than gas or is the effect of what lithium strip mines(for batteries) have on the earth versus what is out there.

ShinerBock,

Does the same hold true for safety regulations imposed on the car manufactures also causing car prices to increase?

There is give and take.

[goducks10]

I'll take our clean air over this any day.
http://www.scmp.com/topics/beijing-air-pollution

[goducks10]

proxim2020 wrote:

wowens79 wrote:
I think I'm probably like most on this forum, we love to spend time in the outdoors, and we want a clean healthy environment. But, why does our government put all these regulations on our cars, and manufacturers, when plants and cars in China, India, and other countries are kicking out way more pollution than we are.

We've developed tons of pollution controlling processes. We need to demand other countries come up to our standards, and sell the pollution controlling equipment to them.

This would put overseas manufacturers on a more even playing field with us. We can't just keep sending jobs overseas, and burden our manufacturers and our consumers with all these stiffer regulations.

I do think we need to push auto manufacturers to produce clean burning efficient vehicles, but you get to a point where there is little more that can be improved.

We're making advancements, but we still have a long way to go. We still contribute a significant part. When the last study was done, the only country that topped the US in emissions was China. You would need to combine the emissions for all of the countries in the European Union and India to equal our levels.

It's even worse when you look at it on the per capita scale. We completely crush China on that scale. The US produces 17 metric tons per capita while China only produces 7. Out of the top 40 most populous nations in the world, we rank 1st in emissions per capita. You have to clean up your own lawn before you can complain about the neighbor's.

Lots of bicycles in China:)

[ShinerBock]

daved9664 wrote:
As a 20 something year old Im happy to see emission regulations. Sure there are some hiccups afterword, but it puts the pressure on manufacturers to create technology that does not destroy our air quality, environment, mine and your children's and grand children's futures. Fossil fuels are an age old technology. Tesla found out how to create electricity out of thin air decades ago.... I think we can find a happy medium where these rich folks can make a few dollars while not destroying the environment. It's way over due for changes like these and Im not sorry if some older folk get upset about "scary changes" if it's for the better.

Actually many of these technology advancements are at the expense of the consumer. This is one of the major reason why vehicles have gotten so expensive over the past few decades because emissions, fuel economy, and safety regulations imposed on new vehicles have increased exponentially.

Maybe the reason why these "older folks" get upset about "scary changes" made by the government because we have been in this country long enough to know that anything a government bureaucrat regulates actually makes matters worse in many cases because government just reacts instead of looking at long term effects. For instance, take a look at LBJ's "War on Poverty" in the mid 60s where the government actually went out door to door to put people on welfare. Yeah he had "good intentions" to give the black communities an economic equality, but by doing so he de-incentivized self betterment and incentivized single parent households. The is one of the major reasons why single parent households in the black community went from about 20% in the mid 60s to about 70% today. It is a fact that a male growing up in a single parent home with absolutely no father figure greatly multiplies that child's chances of not finishing school, committing crime, going to jail, and dying from violent crime. So what LBJ thought was a great idea at the time and what he called others who disagreed with it heartless, turned out to be one of the single most devastating policies effecting the black community in modern times.

Another is government increase in policies regulating and subsidizing higher education in the 90's which is the main reason why tuition and fees have increase dramatically since then. Same with health care. Now it is healthcare insurance by the current President which is why it to has gone up dramatically in the past few years.

So you can see why we "older folks" have our doubts about "scary changes" made by the government because we have been around long enough to know that in many cases they do more harm than good. In this case with diesels, knowing how government bureaucrats operate first hand, I bet that they mostly just looked at continuously reducing emissions without seeing if the reduction in fuel economy actually made engines put out more pollutants in the long run due to having to burn more fuel to do the same work. Then there is the factor of electricity. Is the plant producing the electricity polluting more than gas or is the effect of what lithium strip mines(for batteries) have on the earth versus what is out there.