Can my truck tow this?

[ksnider74]

So like any other new person that's bought a travel trailer I probably have put the cart before the horse. So ultimately the question is can I tow this...
I have a 2019 GMC Sierra Elevation DC 4x4 with the tow package and the L84 engine and a 3.23 gear ratio. The limitations are

9400lb Towing capacity
7000lb gvwr
15000 GCWR
3800 GAWR RR
940 tongue weight

The trailer I bought was a 2020 Venture Sport Trek 322VRL with
1010 dry hitch weight
7580 dry weight
8820 loaded weight

So I know that the owners manual for the truck gives specs and limitations and states any trailer must have a WDH and then shows 50%? So can I tow thing or what?

Thank you all in advance and will appreciate any feedback.

[Terryallan]

valhalla360 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

My contention is that a lower gear will give you a higher tow rating / capacity, and in fact the engineers back me up with their tow capacity numbers.
A 3.73 has a higher tow capacity / rating than does a 3.55. Why. Because the 3.73 can deliver more power to the ground at lower speeds.

According to the engineers. The idea that rear gearing no longer matters in towing is completely wrong. If that were to be true. It would not matter what rear gear was installed in the truck. They could be using 2.15 and tow the same thing. And we all know that isn't going to happen. I can tell you having just went from a 3.55 to a 3.73. there is a world of difference.

The honest truth is GM, and Ford put in high gears in most of their truck to meet the CAFE numbers mandated by the Gov. And in so doing make most of their trucks gutless. But for most customers that doesn't matter either. They are not going to use the truck to work, or tow. They just use them like a car. I have a friend that just bought a F150 with the EcoBoost, and a 3.15 rear. We were talking, and he told me. it has a low tow capacity. But he wasn't planning on towing anything any way. So it works for him.

If you are pushing the truck to it's absolute towing limit...yes, a deeper rear end will increase the tow rating. But if you are within the ratings, it won't improve the towing.

If you compare two trucks identical except: one with a 10k tow limit (& lower numerical rear end) and one with a 12.5k tow limit (& higher numerical rear end) and you are towing 7k...it really doesn't matter with modern 8-10 gear transmissions. Basically, the transmissions will pick different gears to effect the same overall gear ratio (or at least close enough it won't be noticeable when looking at engine RPM and efficiency).

This is different from the good old days of the 3 or 4 speed transmission. Yes, in those days the low numerical rear ends were about getting better MPG. Most miles ran empty and the set up the transmission around that.

Problem as soon as the engine can't hold top gear...with a 4speed, you are going from say 1.00 to 1.36 or a 36% change in gear ratio (some transmissions can be upwards of 60%). That was often WAY MORE of a drop than the engine needed, so the engine would race like mad (36% increase in RPM) to keep the RPM up high enough to maintain highway speeds. By upping the rear end, the truck could hold top gear and stay at a reasonable RPM...when towing... but will run higher RPM than needed when not towing hurting MPG.

But say the modern Ford 10 speed transmission, dropping from 10 to 9 goes from 0.63 to 0.68 or about a 7.5% change in gear ratio. So if the engine can't hold top gear and drops down, the engine sees a 7.5% RPM increase to hold the same speed and that will often be enough...if not, it can drop to 8 or 7 and so on but it can dial it in with small percentage changes. It can do this with either rear end, you will just see different gears being used for the same conditions but for the same speed the engine RPM and load will be within a few percentage points...the rear end simply doesn't matter if you are within the tow limits.

What you are ignoring. Is the fact that with a lower gears the tow rating are increased. So what may be pushing the limits for a truck with a 3.15 rear, is well with in the limits of a truck with a 3.73 rear. The truck is rated on how it is equipped. Higher gears equals lower tow rating. Lower gears equal higher tow rating. It is simple physics. Lower gears deliver more power to the ground at lower speeds, and most important of all. From a stop. You only got one low gear / starting gear to choose from. and there is a HUGE difference in a 3.15, and a 3.73. Your TV will let you feel the difference by raising up on one side when you start off, if your gear is too high. Upper gears / 4th 5th 6th, mean nothing if first gear can't get you started.

[Grit_dog]

Lwiddis wrote:
“I have a friend that just bought a F150 with the EcoBoost, and a 3.15 rear. We were talking, and he told me. it has a low tow capacity.”

My new Silverado has a 3.24 rear end and 8000 max tow weight. I don’t consider that low, or huge.

Yes, by low, he means about 8klbs with the 3.13 axles.
And I doubt your new truck is rated any less than 9400-9500lbs with the 3.23s, because that would make it a minimum 5.3 8 speed truck or possibly a 6.2 10 speed, with the lowest rating configuration with those drivetrains being 9400lbs based on the published data.

[Grit_dog]

^ This is correct theory scooby. But in general, the same overall gear reduction or overdrive ratio is achieved, so the engine sees the same load for equal parameters.
Generally. Now one would have to calculate "minor losses". IE greater friction from greater stress in the 3rd member due to a smaller ring gear vs less friction/stress in the transmission at the same time.
Stress on the driveshaft is real. But that's easy and cheap to beef up (as a mfg).

[JRscooby]

valhalla360 wrote:

If you are pushing the truck to it's absolute towing limit...yes, a deeper rear end will increase the tow rating. But if you are within the ratings, it won't improve the towing.

If you compare two trucks identical except: one with a 10k tow limit (& lower numerical rear end) and one with a 12.5k tow limit (& higher numerical rear end) and you are towing 7k...it really doesn't matter with modern 8-10 gear transmissions. Basically, the transmissions will pick different gears to effect the same overall gear ratio (or at least close enough it won't be noticeable when looking at engine RPM and efficiency).

This is different from the good old days of the 3 or 4 speed transmission. Yes, in those days the low numerical rear ends were about getting better MPG. Most miles ran empty and the set up the transmission around that.

Problem as soon as the engine can't hold top gear...with a 4speed, you are going from say 1.00 to 1.36 or a 36% change in gear ratio (some transmissions can be upwards of 60%). That was often WAY MORE of a drop than the engine needed, so the engine would race like mad (36% increase in RPM) to keep the RPM up high enough to maintain highway speeds. By upping the rear end, the truck could hold top gear and stay at a reasonable RPM...when towing... but will run higher RPM than needed when not towing hurting MPG.

But say the modern Ford 10 speed transmission, dropping from 10 to 9 goes from 0.63 to 0.68 or about a 7.5% change in gear ratio. So if the engine can't hold top gear and drops down, the engine sees a 7.5% RPM increase to hold the same speed and that will often be enough...if not, it can drop to 8 or 7 and so on but it can dial it in with small percentage changes. It can do this with either rear end, you will just see different gears being used for the same conditions but for the same speed the engine RPM and load will be within a few percentage points...the rear end simply doesn't matter if you are within the tow limits.

Is the engine the only part of the vehicle that takes a strain? Yes, the more verity of ratios in trans is better for engine. Just pulling numbers off the donkey, I don't know what would be real on a RV. If it takes 1000ft/lbs of torque at the wheel to move the load, with 4:1 rearend, the driveshaft is only carrying 250ft/lbs plus friction in rearend. But if the ratio is 2:1 the driveshaft must carry 500ft/lbs plus more friction in the rearend. And that increase in force is also applied to frame, motor mounts and more.

[valhalla360]

Terryallan wrote:

My contention is that a lower gear will give you a higher tow rating / capacity, and in fact the engineers back me up with their tow capacity numbers.
A 3.73 has a higher tow capacity / rating than does a 3.55. Why. Because the 3.73 can deliver more power to the ground at lower speeds.

According to the engineers. The idea that rear gearing no longer matters in towing is completely wrong. If that were to be true. It would not matter what rear gear was installed in the truck. They could be using 2.15 and tow the same thing. And we all know that isn't going to happen. I can tell you having just went from a 3.55 to a 3.73. there is a world of difference.

The honest truth is GM, and Ford put in high gears in most of their truck to meet the CAFE numbers mandated by the Gov. And in so doing make most of their trucks gutless. But for most customers that doesn't matter either. They are not going to use the truck to work, or tow. They just use them like a car. I have a friend that just bought a F150 with the EcoBoost, and a 3.15 rear. We were talking, and he told me. it has a low tow capacity. But he wasn't planning on towing anything any way. So it works for him.

If you are pushing the truck to it's absolute towing limit...yes, a deeper rear end will increase the tow rating. But if you are within the ratings, it won't improve the towing.

If you compare two trucks identical except: one with a 10k tow limit (& lower numerical rear end) and one with a 12.5k tow limit (& higher numerical rear end) and you are towing 7k...it really doesn't matter with modern 8-10 gear transmissions. Basically, the transmissions will pick different gears to effect the same overall gear ratio (or at least close enough it won't be noticeable when looking at engine RPM and efficiency).

This is different from the good old days of the 3 or 4 speed transmission. Yes, in those days the low numerical rear ends were about getting better MPG. Most miles ran empty and the set up the transmission around that.

Problem as soon as the engine can't hold top gear...with a 4speed, you are going from say 1.00 to 1.36 or a 36% change in gear ratio (some transmissions can be upwards of 60%). That was often WAY MORE of a drop than the engine needed, so the engine would race like mad (36% increase in RPM) to keep the RPM up high enough to maintain highway speeds. By upping the rear end, the truck could hold top gear and stay at a reasonable RPM...when towing... but will run higher RPM than needed when not towing hurting MPG.

But say the modern Ford 10 speed transmission, dropping from 10 to 9 goes from 0.63 to 0.68 or about a 7.5% change in gear ratio. So if the engine can't hold top gear and drops down, the engine sees a 7.5% RPM increase to hold the same speed and that will often be enough...if not, it can drop to 8 or 7 and so on but it can dial it in with small percentage changes. It can do this with either rear end, you will just see different gears being used for the same conditions but for the same speed the engine RPM and load will be within a few percentage points...the rear end simply doesn't matter if you are within the tow limits.

[Grit_dog]

^ You're mostly correct, in that comparing 2 identical setups save for final drive ratios, the deeper gears will pull harder.

However, it is actually about the total gear reduction or overdrive % from the crankshaft to the wheels (same size wheels for accurate comparison too).
Exactly what you are explaining (that you dont think is possible) is happening. I don't think anyone said rear gears don't matter, but rather there are other changes that allow higher geared final drive ratios to work as well as older lower geared finals.

With more trans gears, the low gears start out deeper, much deeper in some cases and have more gear splits between 1st and whatever the final ratio is.
So, yes, same engine power, you can get the same off the line gear multiplication with a higher geared axle and lower geared transmission.
Of course the Ford with the 3.13s doesn't pull like the 3.73s with the same engine and trans, but it may pull the same as a different truck (same power theoretically) with a lower set of final gears and a higher trans gear ratio.

[Lwiddis]

“I have a friend that just bought a F150 with the EcoBoost, and a 3.15 rear. We were talking, and he told me. it has a low tow capacity.”

My new Silverado has a 3.24 rear end and 8000 max tow weight. I don’t consider that low, or huge.

[Terryallan]

valhalla360 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

mkirsch wrote:

I'm skeptical what the "tow package" includes if your truck has 3.23 gears, by the way. A hitch receiver is not a "tow package."

Get your head out of the 1970's. The days of 3-speed transmissions and needing 4.10 gears to tow an empty wheelbarrow are long gone. This truck has an 8-speed transmission with a super deep first gear, and well spaced gears between there and the double overdrive.

Where you get the gear reduction is irrelevant, as long as you have it available. 3.23 is a perfectly fine towing gear.

Wonder why the engineers give the lower gears a higher tow package??? Just saying.

His last sentence covers the answer. If he's within the tow ratings of the truck it doesn't matter where the overall gear ratio comes from.

But if he is exceeding the truck ratings, that suggests the necessary gearing is not "available" and the only way to get that without upgrading the engine or chassis is a lower rear end gear.

Now of course, those ratings are assuming fairly tough conditions (climbing a steep grade in hot conditions), so if you are running on flat land, you may be able to cheat and get away with it but this is a different issue.

My contention is that a lower gear will give you a higher tow rating / capacity, and in fact the engineers back me up with their tow capacity numbers.
A 3.73 has a higher tow capacity / rating than does a 3.55. Why. Because the 3.73 can deliver more power to the ground at lower speeds.

According to the engineers. The idea that rear gearing no longer matters in towing is completely wrong. If that were to be true. It would not matter what rear gear was installed in the truck. They could be using 2.15 and tow the same thing. And we all know that isn't going to happen. I can tell you having just went from a 3.55 to a 3.73. there is a world of difference.

The honest truth is GM, and Ford put in high gears in most of their truck to meet the CAFE numbers mandated by the Gov. And in so doing make most of their trucks gutless. But for most customers that doesn't matter either. They are not going to use the truck to work, or tow. They just use them like a car. I have a friend that just bought a F150 with the EcoBoost, and a 3.15 rear. We were talking, and he told me. it has a low tow capacity. But he wasn't planning on towing anything any way. So it works for him.

[JRscooby]

patperry2766 wrote:


It's not only corporate, it the fed govt. It's called CAFE (Corporate Ave Fuel Economy) and the govt sets a fleet wide average for all cars, SUV's and 1/2T trucks. 3/4 and above are exempt for now.

Basically for 2021, the CAFE for manufacturers is 40.3-41 MPG, and if you can't meet it, then you have hefty fines to pay to Uncle Sam. F,C,D are gonna have a hard time making that since they've basically abandoned the car business and concentrating manufacturing efforts on SUV's and trucks.

https://www.transportation.gov/mission/sustainability/corporate-average-fuel-economy-cafe-standards

I thought the reasoning behind the CAFE standard was to cause the companies to sell high efficiency vehicles cheap enough to speed up the replacement of older less efficient vehicles. What people are willing to pay for pickups would help pay for replacing junkers. But once again we prove history my not repeat, but it sure does rhyme.

[patperry2766]

BenK wrote:
Towing is lower on their mandate from managment...higher requirement is Corporate MPG...even fractions of a MPG is more important to them

Plus, towing metrics is very low on the bean counter management requirements

It's not only corporate, it the fed govt. It's called CAFE (Corporate Ave Fuel Economy) and the govt sets a fleet wide average for all cars, SUV's and 1/2T trucks. 3/4 and above are exempt for now.

Basically for 2021, the CAFE for manufacturers is 40.3-41 MPG, and if you can't meet it, then you have hefty fines to pay to Uncle Sam. F,C,D are gonna have a hard time making that since they've basically abandoned the car business and concentrating manufacturing efforts on SUV's and trucks.

https://www.transportation.gov/mission/sustainability/corporate-average-fuel-economy-cafe-standards

[valhalla360]

Terryallan wrote:

mkirsch wrote:

I'm skeptical what the "tow package" includes if your truck has 3.23 gears, by the way. A hitch receiver is not a "tow package."

Get your head out of the 1970's. The days of 3-speed transmissions and needing 4.10 gears to tow an empty wheelbarrow are long gone. This truck has an 8-speed transmission with a super deep first gear, and well spaced gears between there and the double overdrive.

Where you get the gear reduction is irrelevant, as long as you have it available. 3.23 is a perfectly fine towing gear.

Wonder why the engineers give the lower gears a higher tow package??? Just saying.

His last sentence covers the answer. If he's within the tow ratings of the truck it doesn't matter where the overall gear ratio comes from.

But if he is exceeding the truck ratings, that suggests the necessary gearing is not "available" and the only way to get that without upgrading the engine or chassis is a lower rear end gear.

Now of course, those ratings are assuming fairly tough conditions (climbing a steep grade in hot conditions), so if you are running on flat land, you may be able to cheat and get away with it but this is a different issue.

[Walaby]

DutchmenSport wrote:
If you had to ask the question in he first place, well??? probably not!

This really is the crux of most discussions on this topic. They almost always are started by someone who isn't sure, and is looking for reassurance from unknown individuals on the internet. Typically the answers end up close to 50/50, and the individual asking the question can glean a piece or two of information that will either (a) justify what they are doing, or (b) justify the need for the proper tool (ie a new truck) to do the job.

One can always find the justification they need for either decision, they just have to wait for the right post, or combination of posts that they can then say "see honey, this guy here who has been on this forum for 15 years says I need a new truck, so obviously he is very knowledgeable and must be right". Or, "see honey, we can buy that trailer we want and don't have to upgrade the truck, because the guy with 15 years of experience said so".

Not everyone is born with the knowledge, so research is necessary. I believe the best approach is to do your own research, and ask questions as necessary to clarify your knowledge. That's what I did when I started getting into RVing. I did probably a years worth of research and had multiple conversations with a friend who has much more experience than I did, and used all resources available to me... not just asking "hey, can I tow this", and relying on the answer I wanted to hear.

Just sayin...

Mike

[BenK]

Towing is lower on their mandate from managment...higher requirement is Corporate MPG...even fractions of a MPG is more important to them

Plus, towing metrics is very low on the bean counter management requirements

[Grit_dog]

twodownzero wrote:


Uh, no I didn't. It's simple arithmetic. GCWR - GVWR = 8k pounds. It's in the specs for the vehicle.

And .2 lower gear ratio magically gives it 2000lbs more gcwr, but whos counting. Also payload considers 2 - 150lb passengers PRIOR to deducting anything from payload number and the heaviest publihsed curb weight is just over 5klbs, 5008 lbs, for the highest zooted RST 6.2L 10 speed. Granted the 5.3 crew cab is probably still 4700lbs easy.





Oooh, good one. What percentage of full size pickups come with gears that high? Does Ford even offer a 3.23 on an F-150? Even within GM sales numbers or on a dealer's lot, what percentage of trucks do you think come with 3.23 gears? I bet it's not many.




Ooooh, you're speculating again... This aint about F150s, but you're absolutely right, they don't offer a 3.23 gear truck. But they do have 3.15s, 3.31s, 3.55s and 3.73s.
And the GM twins only have 2. The little motors and the 5.3s with the old 6 speeds get 3.42s, as do the max trailer package 5.3 8 speeds and max trailer 6.2 10 speeds. The bulk of the trucks are the 5.3 8 speed trucks with 3.23s and the 6.2 non max tow also get 3.23s.
I've been looking at them. Hard to get a 3.42 with the bigger engines = high $ trim packages that come with the high $ engines and trans.
But whatever.




Where you get the gear reduction is a big deal for the transmission if you want it to last. I'm sure rebuilding that 8 speed transmission isn't cheap.

I will agree 100% that the rear axles haven't gotten basically any stronger or beefier on the GMs. Ford offers a heavier duty rear semi floater in the half tons.
But, in the million miles plus I've put on mostly half tons working them as construction trucks and the equivalent 10s of millions of miles on the same trucks doing the same stuff, just for the companies I've worked for, AND the millions of trucks passed on the road over the course of years, I'm not sure I've seen 1 single newer 1/2 ton pickup with a busted rear axle and can only think of maybe a few that have needed rebuilt, ever.

So aside from you penchant for spewing the mfgs ratings.
How many real world incidents have you experienced or seen that you attribute to (not driver error, not road conditions, not a blowout from a nail, screw, cactus thorn, beer bottle or some other road hazard) being at, near or slightly over some published rating?


The best part of these discussions is getting insight into how others think.

[Grit_dog]

Terryallan wrote:


Wonder why the engineers give the lower gears a higher tow package??? Just saying.

Of course they do, but the difference between the "highway geears" and the "towing gears" is ....wait for it, 3.23s vs 3.42s.
And on the OP's truck, you're right, the max trailer package ups the tow rating to like 11,400 from 9,700, same 8 speed trans. How much of that is gears and how much is other "stuff" who knows, most of it likely, but who cares. He's within the rating for his truck anyway if he's careful ( I can't account for bringing the Traeger, a motorcycle, the fat mother in law and a rock collection....different story)

And not over the hitch rating 1250lbs for a "conventional" hitch.

Yes it's at the upper end of what that truck will want to pull, but again, the question was "can my truck tow this?" and the answer is yes with what we know about the trailer.

Would I rather have deeper gears? He!! yes! Give me 4.10s with the 10 speed geared to still run about 2000rpms at about 80 mph in top gear.
Would I rather have a 3/4ton L5P Dmax that would literally pull the guts out of the trailer and accelerate uphill without dropping a gear? You betcha too.
But again, is the truck suitable? Yup, towed with one of them. Ripped a 10klb+ trailer over the Cascades and back a couple times.
Never had trouble exceeding the speed limit on I 90 or US 12, or stopping. (FWIW, I don't weigh, I work. As long as it aint on the bump stops, I'll typically run it. But I know the skid steer was 6-7klbs + a sweeper attachment on a 24' deckover that weighs 4klb+ empty and I had a 5k Honda in the truck bed along with a cross box full of tools and a 50gal fuel cube. Actually the 2019 was a loaner, so no tool box and fuel cube, but that's standard gear on my 2016 that does the same duty.)

And while we're at it, the "weak Chebbie trailer hitch" is a great argument, IF he had one of them old purportedly bad hitches, but not a dang thing to do with this discussion.
Besides, do any of y'all believe that the "mfg rating" is anywhere near the ragged edge of the component? If you do, go live with the lawyers and leave us real folks to to our own business.

AND if this is all really over a trailer receiver, about $200 will get you a real beefy Curt or Superhitch so you can sleep at night.