Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Ace_]

JIMNLIN wrote:
ace says;
"Problem is you (and I mean you specifically) think your choice is the only one that works, and it works for you, but if someone else wants to tow your same 5'er, they don't NEED a diesel, and you think they do. I don't. I'll say it again, both trucks will do the same thing, and one doesn't necessarily do it better than the other, because the owner of the truck makes that determination based on his or her needs. I know you won't read or understand that, but I hope those that don't already have their minds made up understand it. You keep thinking I'm saying something I'm not saying. "
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Jim says;
The V10 is a stout engine and without a doubt gets the best fuel milage of the big block gassers. But it won't touch "my diesel" in towing power/max torque/fuel consumption/power at any elevation/long term reliability at several hundred thousand miles/cheaper oil change schedules or just regular scheduled maintenance/etc. If you notice I didn't say all diesels.

Towing with your gasser makes sence for you but in my case with over a 600+ mile a week commute plus doing a bit of hauling for bucks it would have been a ecnomic disaster." (end of quote)
======================================================================

Your still making statements that were never said. Your statement above is yours and mine direct quotes.

By the way be careful about throwing around insinuations with words like "Lack of understanding" or "ignorance" or "lack of intelligence when refering to other posters with different experience/experiences that yours as it doesn't say much for your credibility.

The oil change schedule for a '03 to '07 5.9 Dodge/Cummins is 15000/7500.

You're still making statements that were never said? I don't even know what that means.

No, I won't be careful. Nothing you can do about it either. I still think my V10 will tow your 5'er without a hiccup. Lack of understanding and ignorance are not negative things, unless you refuse to understand them. I would say a person that hasn't driven a new V10 with Tow Command and 4.30 gears that said it could not tow the same grades as a diesel was ignorant, or would do it at 25mph (a 11k lb 5'er as cigar mike said). That's not a negative statement as to the person. The person should drive one and then make comments based on that, then they would be making those comments with understanding, and not ignorant. Again, not a negative statement to the person that was ignorant. I think you just have so much ego that you refuse to admit you're ignorant of the current gas offerings. That too is not a negative comment. It's a fact you're ego got the best of you 😉 , AND it's a fact you're ignorant. Being ignorant isnt' a negative thing. I haven't driven a 2008 or newer diesel and am ignorant of the power they make, except on paper. A 2005+ Chevy, a 2005 6.0, or 2002 7.3L Ford or older Chevy, no, I'm not ignorant of them (I've USED them all, not just driven them).

Edited to add: I sure with that "block member" function worked, as it would be a lot easier not to even see your posts.

By the way, what did I say, specifically that got you so riled up? What are we arguing about, because I don't even know. I said you (generally) don't NEED a diesel because a gas truck will do the same job. I also posted a link to the most objective article on the subject, much more objective than most people can accomplish on their own (not just seat of the pants), I said buy what you want and be happy, and I showed how torque is a function of gearing to clear up ambiguity when others (not you specifically) say you NEED a diesel to do the same job. There are other things I said, but what specifically got your panties in a wad?

[blt2ski]

Sam,

You forgot a smiley after the I would spank you for posting pic!

The thing we all need to consider, is somewhere yes diesel is a dollar more than the cheapest gas. Somewhere it is also 20cents different! it is what it is where we live, and we live with it!

Marty

[JIMNLIN]

ace says;
"Problem is you (and I mean you specifically) think your choice is the only one that works, and it works for you, but if someone else wants to tow your same 5'er, they don't NEED a diesel, and you think they do. I don't. I'll say it again, both trucks will do the same thing, and one doesn't necessarily do it better than the other, because the owner of the truck makes that determination based on his or her needs. I know you won't read or understand that, but I hope those that don't already have their minds made up understand it. You keep thinking I'm saying something I'm not saying. "
================================================================================

Jim says;
The V10 is a stout engine and without a doubt gets the best fuel milage of the big block gassers. But it won't touch "my diesel" in towing power/max torque/fuel consumption/power at any elevation/long term reliability at several hundred thousand miles/cheaper oil change schedules or just regular scheduled maintenance/etc. If you notice I didn't say all diesels.

Towing with your gasser makes sence for you but in my case with over a 600+ mile a week commute plus doing a bit of hauling for bucks it would have been a ecnomic disaster." (end of quote)
======================================================================

Your still making statements that were never said. Your statement above is yours and mine direct quotes.

By the way be careful about throwing around insinuations with words like "Lack of understanding" or "ignorance" or "lack of intelligence when refering to other posters with different experience/experiences that yours as it doesn't say much for your credibility.

The oil change schedule for a '03 to '07 5.9 Dodge/Cummins is 15000/7500.

[Ram4Sam]

bluenote wrote:

TxCoastCamper wrote:
Sorry all, IMO:

Though peevish he may be, 8.1 van man does win in regard to what makes frugal sense.

Consider diesel at $1 more than gas; a diesel engine gets about 25% better fuel economy than a gasser (whether towing or empty, on average); about $5k more entry cost for the diesel - then over the course of about 150k miles the gasser saves more than $10k.

A) Diesel does NOT cost $1 more than gas everywhere, so that argument isn't valid for everyone.

B) Many diesels get FAR better than 25% improved mileage over a big block gasser.

I went from a big block gasser (7.4L Vortec) to a diesel (Duramax) and get closer to 50% better mileage both towing and empty. Even at current gas and diesel prices in my area, it is still slightly cheaper for me to drive the diesel.

However, my results may not be true for others. It just gets tiresome when people make blanket, general statements regarding a topic. Then they use those statements as if they somehow validate their argument.

Good post!
A) Diesel does NOT cost $1 more than gas everywhere, so that argument isn't valid for everyone. Here in So Kalifas, diesel is only 40cents more than gasoline.I would post a pic of the price sign but Blt2ski would spank me.

B) Many diesels get FAR better than 25% improved mileage over a big block gasser.Back in the day, my BB Ford was 10mpg empty and 7 mpg when towing. Now, 19-20 empty and 13-14 towing, way more than 25 percent.

Pretty easy decision in my book.

Sam

[Ace_]

A person's inability, or refusal, to accept or understand is not a personal attack and is not dependent on his or her intelligence. Lack of understancing could be ignorance, (lack of) intelligence, or other factors, but even those are not necessarily a personal attack.

[bluenote]

Now Ace makes a thinly veiled personal attack on Jimnlin's intelligence? LOL, nothing better than using insults as part of your arguments.

[Ace_]

Jim, I used my truck and the other brands for your year, since I was trying to compare your truck to mine, unless your signature is wrong (I copied from a response to you in another thread). Your truck has approximately 5% more torque than mine at the rear wheels. That's not going to be the difference between towing a load and not. I don't put quotes in people's mouths, I just don't. Show me where I quoted you saying something you didn't. Also, I've heard it, that diesels are NEEDED to tow heavy, and it's not true. My gas truck makes 5% less torque than your's at the rear wheels, it makes more than the same year Chevy, it makes more than the same year Ford diesel. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but again, if someone says you NEED a diesel to tow heavy I'll say they're wrong, unless heavy means something more than a 28' 5er with two slides (I'm using you as an example, not all people tow the same 5'er...I hope that's plain enough). By the way, my point (one of them) is the RPM thing. You're right, more RPM doesn't mean more torque for YOU, but it does for me. I wouldn't try to tow heavy at 2500 RPMs up 6% grades, I'd use the truck in the RPM range in which it was designed, and my truck would continue to make more torque at a higher RPM than your's, but I'm not saying it will make more torque than your truck. I don't think I can point it out any more, but I'm the one saying people's trucks are different, in different regions, different needs. That's the opposite of lumping diesel and gas guys.

Problem is you (and I mean you specifically) think your choice is the only one that works, and it works for you, but if someone else wants to tow your same 5'er, they don't NEED a diesel, and you think they do. I don't. I'll say it again, both trucks will do the same thing, and one doesn't necessarily do it better than the other, because the owner of the truck makes that determination based on his or her needs. I know you won't read or understand that, but I hope those that don't already have their minds made up understand it. You keep thinking I'm saying something I'm not saying. I understand torque, post about the fact rear wheel torque has to do with the way the truck is set up (gearing) and you either refuse to believe it (which is fine, say you disagree or don't understand it), and that you should drive what you LIKE or WANT, but both trucks will do the same job. I have experience with diesels (more than a lot of people actually) and try to show both sides (which is why I posted both gas and diesel truck torque numbers) but will argue against a diesel statement that isn't necessarily true (i.e., diesels have more torque, which they do at the FLYWHEEL, but not necessarily at the rear wheels). I've even offered to let one diesel owner drive my truck with a trailer that weighs the same as their's. I'm sure there are diesel drivers that would do the same for me, except I haven't heard of a typcial trailer my truck can't pull. Why don't you rent me a trailer exactly like your trailer (has to be travel trailer because I don't have a 5th wheel hitch) and show me that my truck won't tow it, or that I'll be doing 25 mph in the slow lane getting passed by big rigs (which I'm not quoting you as saying, but it was said)?

Edited to add: what is your oil change interval?

[JIMNLIN]

ACE
your problem is lumping diesel guys vs gasser guys and puttin' quotes in other folks mouth that they never said. I've had both and is apples vs Oranges in towing performance and "especially fuel consumption" in my case. I've towed commercially with both and I have some experience at understanding the importance of torque when moving bigger loads than a RV.

By the way going from just 457 to even just 555 is a huge jump in torque at towing rpms. My max torque starts at 1400 rpm and is flat to max rpm. More rpm does not necessarly equate more torque. At some point torque starts to drop off. I notice you use the older diesel numbers as the new gen diesels are at 650+ torque. The V10 really gets behind there.

The V10 is a stout engine and without a doubt gets the best fuel milage of the big block gassers. But it won't touch "my diesel" in towing power/max torque/fuel consumption/power at any elevation/long term reliability at several hundred thousand miles/cheaper oil change schedules or just regular scheduled maintenance/etc. If you notice I didn't say all diesels.

Towing with your gasser makes sence for you but in my case with over a 600+ mile a week commute plus doing a bit of hauling for bucks it would have been a ecnomic disaster.

Last time I looked (last nite) on commercial haulers webs the diesel is still prefered for serious long haul jobs using LDT size trucks.

[bluenote]

TxCoastCamper wrote:
Sorry all, IMO:

Though peevish he may be, 8.1 van man does win in regard to what makes frugal sense.

Consider diesel at $1 more than gas; a diesel engine gets about 25% better fuel economy than a gasser (whether towing or empty, on average); about $5k more entry cost for the diesel - then over the course of about 150k miles the gasser saves more than $10k.

A) Diesel does NOT cost $1 more than gas everywhere, so that argument isn't valid for everyone.

B) Many diesels get FAR better than 25% improved mileage over a big block gasser.

I went from a big block gasser (7.4L Vortec) to a diesel (Duramax) and get closer to 50% better mileage both towing and empty. Even at current gas and diesel prices in my area, it is still slightly cheaper for me to drive the diesel.

However, my results may not be true for others. It just gets tiresome when people make blanket, general statements regarding a topic. Then they use those statements as if they somehow validate their argument.

[Madhatter1]

Sure,he did great for his needs.I could not possibly use that van or that that engine for what I tow. The issue I have with him is he thinks we all need to drive a 8.1 van. What if I posted over and over that everyone needs to drive a Dodge diesel dually, regardsless to their actual needs. If that guy could point out his reasons bases on his needs others in his situation could get some value out of that. 8.1 van would rather try to convince everyone that his choice is the only choice that is right. When gas is free and diesel is 100% more at $1 per gallon he will finally have a valid point, if he can prove it will stay that way for at least five years. I feel sorry for those who are new looking for some good info that have to read throgh so many pages of pointless opinionated malarkey.

[TxCoastCamper]

Sorry all, IMO:

Though peevish he may be, 8.1 van man does win in regard to what makes frugal sense.

Consider diesel at $1 more than gas; a diesel engine gets about 25% better fuel economy than a gasser (whether towing or empty, on average); about $5k more entry cost for the diesel - then over the course of about 150k miles the gasser saves more than $10k... (Okay, trade your diesel in for a gasser and get some resale of the diesel back into your pocket - call it $7k...)

But consider Mr. Peevish's best argument - he bought a used van for cheap, way cheap. Mayby $30k and more less than what some of us drive. You finance yours, add $6k to $10k in cost...

Bottom line - he saved, is saving - tens of thousands. And in this economy...

[Madhatter1]

Ace, I hear what your saying but consider this. In the tests the gas engine would be floored, consuming a lot of fuel and operating at its limits. The diesel would also be floored and operating well within its limits burning much less fuel. I know these are not boats or big rigs but that is where I get my reasoning from. Once you reach a certain load the advantage of diesel takes over. I has original Chrysler 440's in my boat and they would drink lots of fuel and cruise at 19 mph (35 Hatt SF). On the way to the yard to get my brand new 454 Mercruisers I wanted to blow up at least one and I ran wide open for a while. Both overheated badly but never blew up. Max speed was 28. Put the new 454s in, got the same speed, same fuel consumtion, and the overheated after about 5 minutes of wide open throttle. In 98 I put in new 270 HP Cummins 5.9s. Result is 26-27 mph cruise, 31 mph wide open, and almost twice as far on a gallon. Yes the gas could push the load but at this weight and beyond the diesel has a clear advantage. Gas with the right gearing can and will pull some heavy loads. The operator needs to figure out for himself what the truck will do most. Would you really pull a 15k trailer through the mountains several times a year with gas? A few times, stick with gas. I would have left my boat gas , but the Keys are too nice to stay away from. I am pro diesel but not anti gas. All my mx bikes, dinghy, pressure washer and the car run on gas. Would never consider diesel for any of those.

[mgratner]

Ace,

your spinning your wheels. Drag strips are not ral life. You come off sounding like a qualified mechanical engineer which I doubt you are. No modern, stock gas pick-up truck can keep up with a diesel climbing, say, a 6% grade in mountains. You will be huffing and puffing in the right truck hill climbing lane doing 4k plus at 30mph while the diesel will be going up at 55mph turning a little over 2 grand. Nothing personal, just the facts. Been there and done that in my diesel.

Cigar Mike

[Ace_]

Madhatter1, with all due respect...

This was posted under a different thread, but it applies to what you said as well. But, realize I'm copying it, so it's not "directed at" you.

"Ok, so everyone knows (or do they) that torque is a function of gearing...so

Jim's truck - 555 lb/ft torque x 3.73 gearing = 2070
Ace! truck - 457 lb/ft torque x 4.30 gearing = 1965
Chevy 6.6L - 520 lb/ft torque x 3.73 gearing = 1939
(you can see my gas truck falls between the Dodge and the Chevy diesels)

So, 5% more torque is the difference in towing something or not, surely not a 28' 5'er? Tell that to the guys with the 7.3L Fords (or the guy with a comparable Chevy diesel) that are towing all over the West coast that actually have less torque than my truck. I'm comparing stock trucks by the way.

... The diesel is the only one that can pull a load is a fallacy, they'll both pull heavy loads up the same grades."

If what you are saying is true, about getting the load moving, then the same could be said for the gasser once the load is up to speed, that the gasser will continue to pull harder because there is more rpm to use, or that the torque is found higher in the rpm curve, and therefore when the diesel begins to drop off in torque (and therefore speed) the gasser will continue to accelerate. By the way, this is the case when pickuptrucks.com tested all three major brands, gas and diesel. Specifically, when comparing the 6.4L Ford to the gas Ford (6.8L) they found the diesel would begin more quickly, but once the diesel started to level off, the gas truck would continue accelerating, and would in fact be traveling at a faster speed at the end of the 1/8 or 1/4 mile tests (both flat and grades). So, you're right, the diesel will typically get the load moving, but after a very short period of time the gasser will have caught up and over distances of greater than 1/8 mile the gasser in fact catches and passes the diesel.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I think a number of people understand the function of their vehicle, but not others. As an example, I know diesel guys that think 4000 rpm is a lot (which may be the case with their diesel, but is just hitting the sweet spot of a gas truck), and the design of the engines allow for that, gas and diesel are different. I think the failure to understand those differences create a lot of these Internet arguments.

[Madhatter1]

The part about the gas making more torque. HP yes, but torque no. Torque and the rpm in which it is achieved is all that matters to me, gas or diesel. 500 lbs of torque at 4000 rpm won't get the load moving the same as 500 lbs at 1500 rpm.