Electric truck - tow vehicle of future ?

[Lessmore]

Interesting article about an electric Class 7 truck .

Begs the question, are electric powered heavy duty pickups...ready for HD towing service... far behind ?

Range right now is somewhat limited, but where will it be in 5, 10, 15 years ?


Maybe the future is closer than we think.


Electric heavy duty truck (Class 7)

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Well, the country with the highest density of electric vehicles is Norway. Currently 55 percent of all new vehicles sold in Norway are electric and that number continues to rise. Yes cold weather plays a role in range of EV's but ranges continue to increase as batteries get cheaper. Norway is a smaller country but remember, this is the EU. People routinely live in one country and work in another as a citizen of the EU can work anywhere in the EU. Commuting distances are similar. So EV's can work in colder climates. Having said all that, the infrastructure for work place level one or level 2 charging is also much better. Building codes have been changed requiring level 1 or 2 charging in apartments and condos and of course level 3 charging is much more available. We are a few years behind on this side of the pond but it is beginning to change fairly quickly where we are. We live in a cold climate and both our EV's suit all our needs...but then again, we knew that going in..or we wouldn't have bought them. My point being that obviously EV's are not suitable for everyone's needs, but they are for many.

I've seen this comment before on other sites and when I searched online for the most popular vehicle in norway, the leaf was the top electric vehicle and it came in at #8 with a whopping 906 sold in June.

I'm struggling with the math of how 3-4 electric models (none in the top 7 for sales) could result in 55% of all new car sales?

Do you have a link to the sales by model? Maybe my data is old because what I found was for 2016.

Seems to me I read it on one of the French EV forums but it should be in English too. When I have some time I'll spend some time on google.

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:


Well, the country with the highest density of electric vehicles is Norway. Currently 55 percent of all new vehicles sold in Norway are electric and that number continues to rise. Yes cold weather plays a role in range of EV's but ranges continue to increase as batteries get cheaper. Norway is a smaller country but remember, this is the EU. People routinely live in one country and work in another as a citizen of the EU can work anywhere in the EU. Commuting distances are similar. So EV's can work in colder climates. Having said all that, the infrastructure for work place level one or level 2 charging is also much better. Building codes have been changed requiring level 1 or 2 charging in apartments and condos and of course level 3 charging is much more available. We are a few years behind on this side of the pond but it is beginning to change fairly quickly where we are. We live in a cold climate and both our EV's suit all our needs...but then again, we knew that going in..or we wouldn't have bought them. My point being that obviously EV's are not suitable for everyone's needs, but they are for many.

I've seen this comment before on other sites and when I searched online for the most popular vehicle in norway, the leaf was the top electric vehicle and it came in at #8 with a whopping 906 sold in June.

I'm struggling with the math of how 3-4 electric models (none in the top 7 for sales) could result in 55% of all new car sales?

Do you have a link to the sales by model? Maybe my data is old because what I found was for 2016.

[John___Angela]

ShinerBock wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Absolutely. But some of the costs are mitigated thru lower health care costs in the cities etc. Socialist countries have a different culture and mindset surrounding things like health care and quality of life. What is important to one society is not necessarily important to another and of course this plays into acceptance of social programs and change. There is not one size fits all for all societies and cultures.

Lower health care costs? For the people or the state? If healthcare is paid for by the state, then the state has to increase taxation on the people to pay for it. Take the 45% income tax in places like Norway versus the 25% in the US on someone who makes $75k a year. That means you will pay $33,750 in taxes versus $18,750 in the US which comes out to $15,000 a year more that you would pay in Norway. Does your health insurance and medical bills equate to $15,000 a year? (And that is not even including the higher sales tax.)

You are right that they have a different culture though. The state charges higher taxes so they can decide who lives and who dies depending on whether it is too costly for them just like they did with Charlie Gard and many others that you don't hear about in US news.

Good morning. Well that comes back to societal and cultural choices. Those of us who live in more socialist societies have chosen to do so for that very reason. Less chance of people falling through the cracks. Yes that comes at a price. I am respectful of different societies choices to do that based on what suits them and I don't consider my society or culture to be better than yours. Its just what is important to us. That doesn't mean it is right for you or your country. Mutual respect of societal choices always goes a long way to getting along with each other.

I was just pointing out that it was not actually a lower cost in the whole scheem of things like you stated it was. You will pay for it one way or another, and just because you don't pay for it up front does not mean you are not paying more on the back end.

Agreed.

[ShinerBock]

John & Angela wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Absolutely. But some of the costs are mitigated thru lower health care costs in the cities etc. Socialist countries have a different culture and mindset surrounding things like health care and quality of life. What is important to one society is not necessarily important to another and of course this plays into acceptance of social programs and change. There is not one size fits all for all societies and cultures.

Lower health care costs? For the people or the state? If healthcare is paid for by the state, then the state has to increase taxation on the people to pay for it. Take the 45% income tax in places like Norway versus the 25% in the US on someone who makes $75k a year. That means you will pay $33,750 in taxes versus $18,750 in the US which comes out to $15,000 a year more that you would pay in Norway. Does your health insurance and medical bills equate to $15,000 a year? (And that is not even including the higher sales tax.)

You are right that they have a different culture though. The state charges higher taxes so they can decide who lives and who dies depending on whether it is too costly for them just like they did with Charlie Gard and many others that you don't hear about in US news.

Good morning. Well that comes back to societal and cultural choices. Those of us who live in more socialist societies have chosen to do so for that very reason. Less chance of people falling through the cracks. Yes that comes at a price. I am respectful of different societies choices to do that based on what suits them and I don't consider my society or culture to be better than yours. Its just what is important to us. That doesn't mean it is right for you or your country. Mutual respect of societal choices always goes a long way to getting along with each other.

I was just pointing out that it was not actually a lower cost in the whole scheem of things like you stated it was. You will pay for it one way or another, and just because you don't pay for it up front does not mean you are not paying more on the back end.

[John___Angela]

ShinerBock wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Absolutely. But some of the costs are mitigated thru lower health care costs in the cities etc. Socialist countries have a different culture and mindset surrounding things like health care and quality of life. What is important to one society is not necessarily important to another and of course this plays into acceptance of social programs and change. There is not one size fits all for all societies and cultures.

Lower health care costs? For the people or the state? If healthcare is paid for by the state, then the state has to increase taxation on the people to pay for it. Take the 45% income tax in places like Norway versus the 25% in the US on someone who makes $75k a year. That means you will pay $33,750 in taxes versus $18,750 in the US which comes out to $15,000 a year more that you would pay in Norway. Does your health insurance and medical bills equate to $15,000 a year? (And that is not even including the higher sales tax.)

You are right that they have a different culture though. The state charges higher taxes so they can decide who lives and who dies depending on whether it is too costly for them just like they did with Charlie Gard and many others that you don't hear about in US news.

Good morning. Well that comes back to societal and cultural choices. Those of us who live in more socialist societies have chosen to do so for that very reason. Less chance of people falling through the cracks. Yes that comes at a price. I am respectful of different societies choices to do that based on what suits them and I don't consider my society or culture to be better than yours. Its just what is important to us. That doesn't mean it is right for you or your country. Mutual respect of societal choices always goes a long way to getting along with each other.

[ShinerBock]

John & Angela wrote:


Absolutely. But some of the costs are mitigated thru lower health care costs in the cities etc. Socialist countries have a different culture and mindset surrounding things like health care and quality of life. What is important to one society is not necessarily important to another and of course this plays into acceptance of social programs and change. There is not one size fits all for all societies and cultures.

Lower health care costs? For the people or the state? If healthcare is paid for by the state, then the state has to increase taxation on the people to pay for it. Take a combined county, municipal, and state 45% income tax in places like Norway versus the 25% in the US on someone who makes $75k a year. That means you will pay $33,750 in taxes versus $18,750 in the US which comes out to $15,000 a year more that you would pay in Norway. Does your health insurance and medical bills equate to $15,000 a year? That is not even including the higher 25% sales tax in Norway that is more than twice the amount of the state with the highest sales tax in the US which is Louisiana at 9.98%.

You are right that they have a different culture though. The state charges higher taxes so they can decide who lives and who dies depending on whether it is too costly for them just like they did with Charlie Gard and many others that you don't hear about in US news.

[mkirsch]

I love how people of a certain agenda always throw out, "What about the outdated electrical infrastructure?" as an excuse to not bother trying anything new.

If they had let that stop them many moons ago we'd still be riding horses because gasoline never would've become the ubiquitous fuel it is now, due to lack of infrastructure. If electric vehicles ever become viable, someone will figure out the infrastructure problem.

The REAL problem with electric vehicles is range. Unless someone invents a new element, Lithium is the top of the food chain as far as battery capacity goes. We've reached the limits of battery technology. The only way to get more range is to pack in more batteries, which means more weight.

[fj12ryder]

BenK wrote:
PPPPS....was told GM killed their EV program after they learned/discovered that this 'econo' car could beat their muscle cars (Vette & Camaro)...all in stock form...and kill their muscle car sales...

Riiiiight, that was after they bought and buried that 100 mpg carburetor. 🙂

[BenK]

PPPPS....was told GM killed their EV program after they learned/discovered that this 'econo' car could beat their muscle cars (Vette & Camaro)...all in stock form...and kill their muscle car sales...

[Halmfamily]

Need to make them like the old steam train. Engine(tractor)-coal car(battery car)-freight cars(trailer). Chug, chug ,chug.

[BenK]

This one is a few years old and will only get better as battery IP gets better...

Zero to 60 mph in less than 3 seconds,fastest electric dragster in the world

YouTube Electric Car Drag Racing

John Wayland runs a political machine on 12 lithium polymer batteries.

It's a 1972 Datsun called "White Zombie," and it's one of the fastest street legal electric cars in the world.

It's been clocked doing zero to 60 mph in 2.95 seconds. It's walloped Corvettes, Camaros and 600-horsepower Vipers in quarter-mile drag races using lead-acid batteries.

Again...a good electric controller for a good electric motor (not engine) can have over 300% torque at Zero RPM while any ICE has zero torque at zero RPM...nature of it all (AKA Laws of Physics)


Plus they only use small, econo cars for electrics...better to use full sized and better yet...full sized trucks/SUVs/etc...more room for the storage device(s)




Can't wait till graphene batteries comes of age...that is moving extremely fast now that those Chinese College Kids invented a super cheap production method (and they are going to make a ton of money)

Understanding Graphene Batteries

Graphene-Based Supercapacitors Could Lead To Battery-Free Electric Cars Within 5 Years




PS...GM (Chevy) asked one of our research teams at SunLabs to help solve a problem with their EV2...they had JAVA'ized it and it was flaky at best. Turns out they did NOT understand real-time/process/system/robotic/automation controls and had a very poor master/slave architecture. Plus they did not understand that the whole vehicle's computer system needed to be architected as a 'network'...not just a bunch of 'separate' computer systems...

The story point for this thread is that the college interns asked about my background in real-time/process/system/robotic/automation background...after told them that this tiny EV2 could beat the exec's Porsche/Ferrari/Vette/etc in a 0-35 MPH drag race out in the parking lot...

Funny, as these kids first beat the lab director's Vette...then the exec's just had to show them...after they beat them all...tried to get my turn...they wouldn't let me...insurance only covered the SunLabs engineers (me, just a Program Manager & Business Exec in title...not covered)...




PPS...Noodle this...the Voyager left Earth for Pluto with less memory on board than my G-Shock wrist watch has...meaning IP moves ahead as stuff is improved over time...

Am a technologist since a kid (didn't know that then) and say stuff gets better all the time...while "The Laws of Physics" never changes...just new ones are 'discovered' all the time...

[John___Angela]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

But yah I hear what you are saying. If you want to really see something depressing go to a drag strip and watch the Teslas knock off half million dollar lamborghinis in the quarter mile. 7 passenger complete with kid seats and cup holders handing lamborghinis and Ferraris their assets...and all in total silence...and a five star safety rating. Ouch

Of course, this is the one performance metric where it does well but is the least road relevant test.

10 laps on the nurberg ring and I'd put my money on a base Ford Focus.

I do find talk about fumes and noise funny. I've had diesel 1 ton trucks idle up behind me in parking lots and surprise me. Modern cars are incredibly quiet and short of sniffing the tailpipe, you really can't smell anything.

You don't need 10 laps. It couldn't even make it 1 lap under full power.

My cell phone won't even make it a day without running out of power and some of you are talking electric class 8's. LOL, good luck with that. 100 mile range, LMAO.

Its true. Most EV's have software that limit the output current under certain conditions and temperatures. Our one EV does that after thirty seconds of full pedal although in normal driving there would never be a reason to have full pedal after thirty seconds. Not sure about our other one or what the parameters are. I am not sure how they do it with the Formula E cars. I would suspect some sort of cooling system. But as far as Tesla's competing on race tracks, remember, these are just luxury family SUV's and sedans, they were not made to race although they do pretty good on the drag strip. Tesla has shown no interest in racing which is generally done as a form of advertising. Tesla also doesn't advertise. Why would they, they have two years of production pre-sold. Class 8 is easily achievable within a couple years and 100 mile would work well for many routes. And since ranges continually increase on all EV's that number will continue to increase and be suitable for more and more markets. JMHO

The OP brought up tow vehicles. I've held my truck WOT for many, many, many minutes at a time towing my trailer. It uses A LOT of energy to do this. Now lets compare gasoline and batteries.

APS Physics wrote:
Stored energy in fuel is considerable: gasoline is the champion at 47.5 MJ/kg and 34.6 MJ/liter; the gasoline in a fully fueled car has the same energy content as a thousand sticks of dynamite. A lithium-ion battery pack has about 0.3 MJ/kg and about 0.4 MJ/liter (Chevy VOLT). Gasoline thus has about 100 times the energy density of a lithium-ion battery.

You're the one that brought up drag racing; and since you did, I have a guy that I know that has a 15K Mustang "daily driver street car" that I will put up against a 120K Tesla in a drag race and I will put 5K on the race. Or I will put my "street car" (not a daily driver) against any Tesla you want in a 1/4 mile race and also bet 5K against the Tesla.

There is only two things that make a Tesla quick. One is they are all wheel drive so they hook up on the street very well. The second is they can dump a lot of energy (power) very quickly.

I said it in the past and I will say it again. EV make very good urban vehicles. Garbage trucks come to mind. Taxi cabs or even local UPS or FedX vehicles come to mind. They will work very good for these things.

TV's or class 8 semis's or airplanes...............not so much.

Oh, and as far as Cummins coming out with a EV truck. All big companies do this. That does not make them feasible. Remember the Ford Nucleon?Now there was a real winner! :B

Good morning. I am not sure who this was directed to as there were multiple posts. I had a dually powerstroke pulling a fifth wheel so I get where WOT is common for extended periods of time. However we are talking about SUV's and sedans here and not tow vehicles. If I held WOT on either of our EV's or any EV or any ICE sedan or SUV for that matter I would be breaking a bunch of laws as I would probably be north of 150 KMH. I am not familiar with the new mustangs but I am surprized that a 15,000 dollar mustang can take a Tesla, Lambo, Ferrari, Vette etc etc off the line. I would not have thought that. That is quick. Is that also the case with the zero to sixty times. Right now the Tesla P100D is at 2.54 seconds so the mustang would have to be quicker than that. Holy crp if it is.

[time2roll]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
I said it in the past and I will say it again. EV make very good urban vehicles. Garbage trucks come to mind. Taxi cabs or even local UPS or FedX vehicles come to mind. They will work very good for these things.

TV's or class 8 semis's or airplanes...............not so much.

I agree we are not there yet. Or even close for that matter.
Still much to be gained with a plug-in hybrid system.

[John___Angela]

ShinerBock wrote:

Bedlam wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
Norway is a smaller country but remember, this is the EU. People routinely live in one country and work in another as a citizen of the EU can work anywhere in the EU. Commuting distances are similar.

I'd have to see some links that show commuting distances via automobile are similar in Europe to North America to believe that's even close to being an accurate statement. Population density is much greater there (even when you compare Norway to Canada) and their fuel is outrageously expensive up north (most likely why electric vehicles are popular). The transit system is more developed in Europe due to the population density. Those people that do commute any distance use public transportation and even those with shorter commutes usually use transit since cities are not car friendly for parking or traffic. In Europe, owning a car is still a luxury and not a necessity like most parts of North America.

Along with high fuel prices, main reasons why electric vehicles are so popular in Norway are due to the tax subsidies and other incentives that they have regulated. Electric vehicles get toll road and ferry payment exemption along with free parking in urban areas on top of the tax subsidies. Of course these tax subsidies and lost revenue has to be replaced by other means. One would have to very ignorant of how economics works if they don't think they are paying for it in other ways.

Absolutely. But some of the costs are mitigated thru lower health care costs in the cities etc. Socialist countries have a different culture and mindset surrounding things like health care and quality of life. What is important to one society is not necessarily important to another and of course this plays into acceptance of social programs and change. There is not one size fits all for all societies and cultures.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

John & Angela wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

But yah I hear what you are saying. If you want to really see something depressing go to a drag strip and watch the Teslas knock off half million dollar lamborghinis in the quarter mile. 7 passenger complete with kid seats and cup holders handing lamborghinis and Ferraris their assets...and all in total silence...and a five star safety rating. Ouch

Of course, this is the one performance metric where it does well but is the least road relevant test.

10 laps on the nurberg ring and I'd put my money on a base Ford Focus.

I do find talk about fumes and noise funny. I've had diesel 1 ton trucks idle up behind me in parking lots and surprise me. Modern cars are incredibly quiet and short of sniffing the tailpipe, you really can't smell anything.

You don't need 10 laps. It couldn't even make it 1 lap under full power.

My cell phone won't even make it a day without running out of power and some of you are talking electric class 8's. LOL, good luck with that. 100 mile range, LMAO.

Its true. Most EV's have software that limit the output current under certain conditions and temperatures. Our one EV does that after thirty seconds of full pedal although in normal driving there would never be a reason to have full pedal after thirty seconds. Not sure about our other one or what the parameters are. I am not sure how they do it with the Formula E cars. I would suspect some sort of cooling system. But as far as Tesla's competing on race tracks, remember, these are just luxury family SUV's and sedans, they were not made to race although they do pretty good on the drag strip. Tesla has shown no interest in racing which is generally done as a form of advertising. Tesla also doesn't advertise. Why would they, they have two years of production pre-sold. Class 8 is easily achievable within a couple years and 100 mile would work well for many routes. And since ranges continually increase on all EV's that number will continue to increase and be suitable for more and more markets. JMHO

The OP brought up tow vehicles. I've held my truck WOT for many, many, many minutes at a time towing my trailer. It uses A LOT of energy to do this. Now lets compare gasoline and batteries.

APS Physics wrote:
Stored energy in fuel is considerable: gasoline is the champion at 47.5 MJ/kg and 34.6 MJ/liter; the gasoline in a fully fueled car has the same energy content as a thousand sticks of dynamite. A lithium-ion battery pack has about 0.3 MJ/kg and about 0.4 MJ/liter (Chevy VOLT). Gasoline thus has about 100 times the energy density of a lithium-ion battery.

You're the one that brought up drag racing; and since you did, I have a guy that I know that has a 15K Mustang "daily driver street car" that I will put up against a 120K Tesla in a drag race and I will put 5K on the race. Or I will put my "street car" (not a daily driver) against any Tesla you want in a 1/4 mile race and also bet 5K against the Tesla.

There is only two things that make a Tesla quick. One is they are all wheel drive so they hook up on the street very well. The second is they can dump a lot of energy (power) very quickly.

I said it in the past and I will say it again. EV make very good urban vehicles. Garbage trucks come to mind. Taxi cabs or even local UPS or FedX vehicles come to mind. They will work very good for these things.

TV's or class 8 semis's or airplanes...............not so much.

Oh, and as far as Cummins coming out with a EV truck. All big companies do this. That does not make them feasible. Remember the Ford Nucleon?Now there was a real winner! :B