Payload "capacity/rating" - not even the OEM's agree?

[RinconVTR]

There are two things that bother me most on this site, of which too many jump on the band wagon and become self-proclaimed experts repeating the same thing over and over until it becomes gospel.

1) Using GTWR (gross trailer weight rating) to find a tow vehicle to tow said trailer. Rarely will you find this in print anywhere but here. Yes, you’ll end up buying one heck of a TV, have big power, and capacity reserve, but this could easily result in overkill at a very high cost. Or the shopper feels forced to buy something too small and they don’t enjoy fully their experience.

I like what Trailer Life says the best:
When purchasing a trailer, consult the weight sticker on
the unit of your choice on a
dealer’s lot and refer to the UVW and CCC.
Estimate how much cargo you will add,
being mindful of the GVWR, and use that number
while selecting a tow vehicle.


2) Payload is king and cannot be exceeded. Time and time again, I hear “that truck doesn’t have enough payload capacity” and find many pickup trucks have payload caps that match mid-size SUV’s. Which seems crazy. One cant go wrong being conservative, but again, at what point does being extremely conservative begin to unnecessarily cost the buyer.

My stance on payload? Front and Rear Axle ratings, GVR and GCVR are king and can sometimes override payload ratings. If you stick to these ratings, which payload is derived from, you’ll find more realistic towing figures. But what’s in print?

Per Ford and Chevy towing guide, which make little to no mention of payload capacity, seem to be on my side of the fence. Dodge (towing guide) is a real red headed step child that makes little sense to me, as they exclude all towing factors from GVR. And ironically only Toyota (towing guide) mimics most statements on here, but leaves out axle weight ratings completly.

Here are the most relevant quotes related to payload from each recent OEM towing guide;

Ford:

Trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight should be 10-15% (15-25% for 5th-wheel towing) of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure vehicle payload (reduce by
option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle. Addition of trailer tongue
(trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR. These ratings can be found on the
vehicle Safety Compliance Certification Label.

GCWR column shows maximum allowable combined weight of vehicle, trailer and cargo (including passengers) for each engine/axle ratio combination. Maximum Loaded
Trailer Weight assumes a towing vehicle with any mandatory options, no cargo, tongue load of 10-15% (conventional trailer) or king pin weight of 15-25% (5th-wheel trailer) and driver
only (150 pounds). Weight of additional options, passengers, cargo and hitch must be deducted from this weight. Also check Required and Recommended Equipment.

GMC:
Trailer tongue weight should be 10 percent to 15 percent of total loadedtrailer weight (up to 600 lbs). Addition of trailer tongue weight must not cause vehicle to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR).

FIFTH-WHEEL AND GOOSENECK HITCH NOTES: Trailer kingpin weight should be 15 percent to 25 percent of total loaded trailer weight. For 1500 Series models, the trailer
kingpin weight should be up to 1500 lbs. The addition of trailer kingpin weight cannot cause vehicle to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). 1500
SERIES MODEL NOTES: For automatic transmission models, an additional transmission oil cooler (KNP) is available.

With trailer towing capacity, you must consider the gross combination weight rating. This figure includes the gross vehicle weight plus the gross vehicle weight of the trailer. When added together, you should never exceed this figure for any reason.

Chevy:

RGAWR AND GVWR: Addition of trailer hitch weight cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). These ratings can be
found on the certification label located on the driver door or door frame.

GCWR: The Gross Combination Weight Rating is the total allowable weight of the completely loaded vehicle and trailer.
TRAILER weight RATING : This rating is determined by subtracting the tow vehicle’s weight (curb weight) from the GCWR. Base vehicle (curb) weight is used, so additional passenger, equipment and
cargo weight reduces this rating.

Maximum trailer weight ratings are calculated assuming a base vehicle, except for any option(s) necessary to achieve the rating, plus driver. The weight of other optional equipment, passengers and cargo will reduce the maximum trailer weight your vehicle can tow.

4 Maximum payload capacity includes weight of driver,
passengers, optional equipment and cargo.

5 Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). When properly equipped; includes vehicle, passengers, cargo and equipment.

NOTE: Trailertongue weight should be 10 to 15 percent of total loaded trailer weight (up to 1,500 lbs. on 2500HD and 3500HD models). Trailer kingpin weight should be 15 to 25 percent of total loaded trailer weight (up to 3,000 lbs. on 2500HD
models and up to 3,500 lbs. on 3500HD models). • Addition of trailer tongue weight/trailer kingpin weight cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR).

Dodge:

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is the total weight of a fully loaded vehicle, including passengers and payload – but excluding all towing.

Gross Combined Vehicle Weight (GCVW) is the total combined weight of a fully loaded vehicle, including passengers, payload and everything in tow.

Toyota:
A truck’s published payload capacity or rating is the starting guideline for carrying cargo. Payload is the weight of everything that a truck can carry and includes vehicle occupants, optional equipment, contents in the pickup bed or cabin and the tongue weight of a trailer.

The maximum payload capacity is determined by subtracting the
vehicle curb weight from the manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR).

Owners expecting to haul loads approaching the published payload rating for a particular truck configuration should weigh the vehicle at a commercial scale with a full tank of gas to ensure that the GVWR is not exceeded when the expected passengers and cargo are loaded.

Another critical consideration:
Tongue weight must be included in the tow vehicle’s payload.


Finally, Trailer Life Towing Guide, like Ford and Chevy, makes little to no mention of payload "capacity or rating" within their calulations or example. I'm opting not to post the example, but I will post their definitions as they include cargo/payload but not as a rating they utilize.

Gross Combination Weight Rating
(GCWR): The total allowable weight of the tow
vehicle, the trailer, the cargo in each, hitch
hardware, fluids and occupants.

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR): The
total allowable weight for the vehicle, including
occupants, fluids, options, hitch hardware,
cargo and trailer-hitch weight.

Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR): The
total allowable weight on an individual axle.
This includes the weight of the tires, wheels,
brakes and the axle itself.

Maximum Tow Rating: The manufacturer’s
weight limit for towed loads. For conventional
trailers, this normally includes a hitchweight
limit as well; for fifth-wheels, the pin
weight is applied to the truck’s GVWR and its
rear-axle GAWR.

[TomG2]

Reading threads like this proves that there are morons that know how to type, but I try to learn something from all.

[DSteiner51]

Buying an oversized truck to pull a small trailer doesn’t make you any safer than someone taking full advantage of a trucks capacity. There are far too many variables to make such an assessment.

And do you know what wisdom is? I can tell you what its not. It is not arbitrarily picking a tow vehicle based on one trailers gross weight rating assuming that’s that safest option.

Most put all these weight ratings together with safety, and while they sure can be related, there is no direct correlation that I have ever seen. If there is data stating otherwise, let’s see it.

You are so correct. Give a moron a Class 8 truck with an empty Berlin Flyer little red wagon behind it and there is no safety involved. Take a 1/2 ton truck over it's GVWR or GCWR by 1or 2% with a driver who knows what he is doing and it is much safer. Reading threads like this prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there are a number of morons driving vehicles that they have no business driving.

[TomG2]

bid_time wrote:
Why is everyone so concerned about what other people do? Do what ever you want. If it makes you feel good, over buy. If you want to tow at the limits, so be it. If you want to tow over the limits, go for it, it's your money.

I don't care what y'all do, this constant ragging on the subject is anoying.

I agree. In fact, it would probably be best if they shut down the forums entirely. Too many different opinions. (NOT)

[bid_time]

Why is everyone so concerned about what other people do? Do what ever you want. If it makes you feel good, over buy. If you want to tow at the limits, so be it. If you want to tow over the limits, go for it, it's your money.

I don't care what y'all do, this constant ragging on the subject is anoying.

[sidney]

soversen wrote:

LMFAO

Thanks

I'm here all week. :B

[soversen]

sidney wrote:
Here I am... again... repeating myself from another thread... I can't keep up with all these weight/payload threads.

GVWR is determined by using a sophisticated social media / internet forum protocol formula.

(FAWR + RAWR)* X = GVWR

Where X is the "Variable Internet Forum Coefficient" or VIFC.

The VIFC is randomly determined by former NASA technician who were responsible for black tank flush maintenance and winterizing the space shuttles. The former technicians live in Houston TX and enjoy RVing, Camping, Boondocking and LT vs ST tire debates.

The VIFC was developed for entertainment purposes only... to encourage lively intellectual debate among RV enthusiast.

However, the VIFC has since morphed into a "COW" (can of worms) that can be taken literally, casually or ignored completely solely dependent upon what size TV you currently own.

:B

LMFAO

[Huntindog]

There are several reasons for the ratings:
1. Reliability (warranty)
2. Performance
3. Safety
4. Legal (registration)
#1 is what most people tend to ignore. Mainly because if you trade often, it will likely be the "next guy" that suffers the consequences.
Often the warranty will cover items that were caused by overloading...This may be coming to a end in the near future. With todays computers, it really won't be all that hard for them to be programed to "know" if overloading is taking place.

#2 is established by the manufacturers as a baseline of what they feel most customers will expect of their trucks. This is of course subjective, but soon when the SAE standards are fully in force, will not be... Look for legal standards to follow afterwards.

#3 is safety related items such as brakes. No one should be compromising in this area... Of course some safety items can also be considered in the other catagories as well.

#4 is the legal, which makes me groan every time it comes up. The laws vary all over the map, some with good logical reasoning behind them, and others with only money as the reasoning. Some have strict enforcement and teeth in the laws, and others are widely ignored.


To summarize. A TV is made up of many different parts that need to work together. The weak part will be the determining factor for what the rating is.. That is the reason why axle ratings are ALWAYS higher than GVW. Many axles are installed in different TVs... In trucks, it has not been unusual for the same basic axle to be installed in Fords, GMs, and Dodges.... Obviously they will not and SHOULD not all have the same ratings.

Whether one believes in the ratings or not will not be decided in this thread....
I do think that it is telling that the OP listed cost as his reason for NOT believing in them.

The truth is that their really isn't all that much cost difference among the Truck choices out there. One can easily move up a weight class for the price of forgoing leather seats etc.

[jmtandem]

Buying an oversized truck to pull a small trailer doesn’t make you any safer than someone taking full advantage of a trucks capacity. There are far too many variables to make such an assessment.

And do you know what wisdom is? I can tell you what its not. It is not arbitrarily picking a tow vehicle based on one trailers gross weight rating assuming that’s that safest option.

Most put all these weight ratings together with safety, and while they sure can be related, there is no direct correlation that I have ever seen. If there is data stating otherwise, let’s see it.

Rincon,

You are certainly entitled to your observations about wisdom and safety. I won't try to change your mind.

For me buying an oversized truck for the trailer is way safer than buying an undersized truck for the trailer all other things considered, and they never are. Erring on the side of safety would be bigger than needed not smaller.

As far as wisdom it is easy. Widsom is letting the manufacturers work out the numbers so we don't have to. The trailer manufacturer's present them in terms of dry weights, payload capacity and gross weights. They did it so we don't have to guess and can have real numbers and make an informed decision. And the truck manufacturer's do the same so we can put both together and have a good towing combination with some sort of safety parameters. GVWR, Axle ratings, payload values are all MAXIMUM values. Somebody did the homework, warranty work, stopping values at a loaded weight, etc. so we don't have to beta test and can be comfortable that the truck will tow the trailer because the manufacturer says it will and it will do it for a long time without breaking because we stay within or near predetermined values. There is some comfort in that.

If you are looking for data and not opinions, look no farther than the tow rating guides and trailer or fifth wheel RV manufacturers recomendations. That is all the data you need to tow safely. None represent opinions, all is data provided by those that should know their business. We don't have to go figure out what the truck will tow safely as that has been presented to us in towing guides. If we operate within or near those parameters we should be hedging one safety bet. There are other considerations as well but at least the truck/trailer combination base is covered.

Nobody is saying that you are not safe at slightly over gross. But, where do we draw the line? Five percent, ten percent, twenty percent over gross? Where does it not become safe? The manufacturers drew the line, if we step over it the world will not end but where do we stop adding the weight? When does it become unsafe?

[Me_Again]

blt2ski wrote:
John,

You will not have to stop in Washington state at weigh scales.

As noted by terry tho. some states depending upon the circumstance, will ticket an RV for being too short, too heavy if figured out per the federal bridge laws.

Marty

"FBL” the only actual vehicle weight laws, along with state tonnage licensing.

So much misinformation spread on the web.

No one has yet provided any info about BC besides the FAQ. where is the law?

Chris

[blt2ski]

John,

You will not have to stop in Washington state at weigh scales.

As noted by terry tho. some states depending upon the circumstance, will ticket an RV for being too short, too heavy if figured out per the federal bridge laws.

Marty

[john_bet]

mowermech wrote:

john&bet wrote:

blt2ski wrote:
I some, if not most or many parts of the US, the what some are calling commercial vs private law, is not that black and white per say. THey are one and the same as to how much you can legally put on a given axel etc. Be you using a class 8 tandem tractor to pull a large 5w. Or a converted diesel pusher bus to an RV. ALL of these people driving these rigs, need to stay below the FBL axel wts to be legal of pulled over, go thru a scale house etc. If over, they "should" get an overwt ticket just as commercial drivers do! That is how it at least works here in Washington. There is not private RV laws vs commercial. Having looked at and read the FBL's, there is no distinction from an actual how we are all to be enforced.

Yes, private rigs do not need special licenses, nor do they need to follow hrs driving......but there vehicles need to follow the laws for ANY rig over 10K gvw! At here I do. I can not tow of have my 3500 at or above 10K lbs, and follow the speed limit 70 mph sign were legal, I need to follow the truck 60 mph speed limit! same with chaining up in the winter. chains required over 10K, does not matter what I am driving or pulling, if the total is over 10K, I need to chain up.

Marty

I have as of yet not towed in Washington State, but if I was to with my Indiana registered rig, then I would need to stop at the scales. Is that right?

No, not unless there is a sign that says ALL vehicles over a certain GVW must stop, and your rig meets the criteria.

I have passed many scales with that signage and have not been chased down yet. I have towed in at least 23 states.

[mowermech]

john&bet wrote:

blt2ski wrote:
I some, if not most or many parts of the US, the what some are calling commercial vs private law, is not that black and white per say. THey are one and the same as to how much you can legally put on a given axel etc. Be you using a class 8 tandem tractor to pull a large 5w. Or a converted diesel pusher bus to an RV. ALL of these people driving these rigs, need to stay below the FBL axel wts to be legal of pulled over, go thru a scale house etc. If over, they "should" get an overwt ticket just as commercial drivers do! That is how it at least works here in Washington. There is not private RV laws vs commercial. Having looked at and read the FBL's, there is no distinction from an actual how we are all to be enforced.

Yes, private rigs do not need special licenses, nor do they need to follow hrs driving......but there vehicles need to follow the laws for ANY rig over 10K gvw! At here I do. I can not tow of have my 3500 at or above 10K lbs, and follow the speed limit 70 mph sign were legal, I need to follow the truck 60 mph speed limit! same with chaining up in the winter. chains required over 10K, does not matter what I am driving or pulling, if the total is over 10K, I need to chain up.

Marty

I have as of yet not towed in Washington State, but if I was to with my Indiana registered rig, then I would need to stop at the scales. Is that right?

No, not unless there is a sign that says ALL vehicles over a certain GVW must stop, and your rig meets the criteria.

[LarryJM]

SKGCRD wrote:
Larry

The thread took a turn towards commercial law, but none-the-less, I want to put out a call to anyone who can provide a CIVIL TRIAL example of someone who was sued for being over any given automotive or trailer manufacture’s weight rating. No commercial driver examples. I’m talking private citizens being sued in CIVIL court for towing while over a weight rating.

Another challenge which I found no results; Show us actual police reports that found the driver of an accident negligent (got a ticket) for towing while over any given weight rating.


For the record, just because I’m asking challenging questions doesn’t mean for one minute I am trying to justify abusing any given rating, for any product.



Attached is a site to search legal proceedings and their outcomes for all of Canada. I cannot find a single suit for exceeding MFGer suggested weights. BC law and its enforcement is known for excess. Float your boat Wilbor and Jimnlin!!! http://www.canlii.org/en/

Let me repeat what I said

"I can easily see how operating a vehicle outside the FMVSS certified limits could easily be considered "NEGLIGENT" or "RECKLESS" operation of a motor vehicle in a CIVIL and even a possible CRIMINAL legal proceeding."

In other words you probably won't find a case "BASED" just on exceeding some wt. number, but say in a wrongful death civil suit operating a vehicle outside it's designed and tested safety numbers (i.e. that FMVSS label numbers) could be one of what would probably be several "FACTORS" leading to a finding of the operator being negligent and thus responsible for the death of an individual. We all know that there is really no active "ENFORCEMENT" of weight laws/regulations like there might or might no be for say SPEED LIMITS ... However that still doesn't mean that they aren't a legal responsibility of us to follow or to accept the potential negative consequences of not following them.

I guess my whole point is that simply dismissing things such as the wt. ratings assigned by a vehicle manufacturer especially the GVWR number is IMO "FOOL HARDY". There is in fact some or I believe more than we know actual engineering that goes into establishing those numbers.

Larry

[Terryallan]

jmtandem wrote:

They THEN have to, if they can, move the load so that it is spread over ALL the axels under the max per the road stress limits. The driver will have 8 hrs if they can do it by hand, simple tools etc.

Sometimes sliding the tandems is all that is needed to reposition the load and get weights within the 12, 34 and 34 maximums. I think drivers know how much each hole on the tandems changes/shifts the weights.

IF I remember correctly. It was about 100 lbs per hole, depending on how the driver requested the trailer be loaded. We always ask that the trailer be loaded nose heavy.

Also sliding the 5th wheel will move weight as well. We liked to have the trailer as close to the back of the cab as possible to prevent wind from getting between. However, In Alabama we got a bridge law ticket for being too short. We had to stretch out the wheel base 3 feet to get legal. But soon as we left the weigh station. We shortened it back up.