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Remembered why I got a F450 with 4.30 gears ... observation.

jimh406
Explorer III
Explorer III
During the past few days, I drove my daughter's families stuff up from El Paso in a 36 ft Penske truck. We were 23,400 according to the Cat Scale. We made it ... a little brutally slow at times. We chose the the pretty route up through NM, UT, ID, OR, and then WA.

A lot of it was nearly the same as we took earlier this year, but we were going as slow as 45 mph up some of the steep mountains. My DW made the comment that the mountains didn't seem so steep in our TC! Obviously we were slow down the mountains as well with not nearly as good as brakes as my F450 with the TC loaded.

I don't know what model engine it had, but it did have a regen mode. It also was an International chassis, so I guess some Navistar model. It was also a pretty bouncy ride and pretty loud compared to the plush F450 Lariat.

It was a strange feeling to be the guy who was going a mile or two mph faster up a hill to pass. A few times, I passed semis that were going probably 35 mph over the past few days, so I guess it could be worse. I did have to look way down the mountain to see if it was possible to attempt the pass. I pass whenever I want with the F450.

Any way, I'm really happy to have the best tool for the job of going up our mountains, and so happy with the choice!

'10 Ford F-450, 6.4, 4.30, 4x4, 14,500 GVWR, '06 Host Rainer 950 DS, Torklift Talon tiedowns, Glow Steps, and Fastguns. Bilstein 4600s, Firestone Bags, Toyo M655 Gs, Curt front hitch, Energy Suspension bump stops.

NRA Life Member, CCA Life Member
59 REPLIES 59

Kayteg1
Explorer II
Explorer II
Let me guess ... the 10 speed in F150 is not design for pulling 18,000 lb ?

Nautique200
Explorer
Explorer
We have a 10 speed in the F150 now. We will have a 10 speed in a super duty in 19 or 20.

We also have an 8 Speed in the Ram 1500.
2016 Ford F450

2015 Arctic Fox 1150
2009 Trails West Warm Blood Trailer

Kayteg1
Explorer II
Explorer II
burningman wrote:
I really don't understand why it's taken forever for the manufactures to build transmissions with a wider overall ratio spread so we don't have this problem.
With my Gear Vendors overdrive, I always have my choice of 4.10 or 3.20. I love both in their own appropriate situations and would hate either if stuck with it all the time.
You'd think they would build 7 or 8 speed transmissions that gave you all the ranges you need.
They give us more than anyone has a right to expect from a pickup truck in just about every other way.


We have 7sp auto in our 2008 sedan, so give pickups another 20 years and they will catch up with technology. :B
I think the main point is that customers don't make demand for fuel-saving features on pickups.
I am shopping around for new F350 dually and such thing like shorter cab, RWD or 3.73 differential simply don't exist on dealers lots, but all trucks do have sunroofs. :S
We have sunroofs on our cars and open them only once a year, at New Year eve while cruising Las Vegas Strip.
I have to build my pickup on the net and wait 2 months to have what I like.

woodhog
Explorer
Explorer
The light truck manufacturers do not know anything
about "truckin", thats why we have the selections we do.
2004.5 Dodge 4x4 SRW Diesel, 245/70R19.5 Michelin XDS2, Bilstein Shocks
Torklift Stable loads, BD Steering Stabilizer Bar, Superchips "TOW" Programed,Rickson 19.5 wheels

2006 8.5 Northstar Arrow, 3 Batteries 200 Watts Solar,
12 Volt DC Fridge.

burningman
Explorer II
Explorer II
I really don't understand why it's taken forever for the manufactures to build transmissions with a wider overall ratio spread so we don't have this problem.
With my Gear Vendors overdrive, I always have my choice of 4.10 or 3.20. I love both in their own appropriate situations and would hate either if stuck with it all the time.
You'd think they would build 7 or 8 speed transmissions that gave you all the ranges you need.
They give us more than anyone has a right to expect from a pickup truck in just about every other way.
2017 Northern Lite 10-2 EX CD SE
99 Ram 4x4 Dually Cummins
A whole lot more fuel, a whole lot more boost.
4.10 gears, Gear Vendors overdrive, exhaust brake
Built auto, triple disc, billet shafts.
Kelderman Air Ride, Helwig sway bar.

Vinsil
Explorer
Explorer
I know where my engine gets to it's best efficiency. 1650 Rpms for my Cummins trucks, the 7.3 liked 1800 rpm. Gearing aside, I keep my rpms there I get the best economy. My F 350 had 3.55's and a five speed, I put 35" tires on it (33.9 actual) and I if I kept the rims in the 1800-1850 range, good fuel mileage. Now, it LIKED to make power over 2k rpm so if I needed to pull a hill, pass, ect....2300+ rpm gave me the most torque to maiantian speed, but will chew through fuel.

My Cummins has 3.73's and 36" tires (35.9 actual) and I rarely use 6th in my auto when towing as 1650-1700 rpm has me at 67 mph in sixth.


Lower gears would allow me to use sixth when towing. But also, watch boost and egt's as well and you can maximize economy. You don't want to lug it and create heat and higher the boost, more fuel too.

I don't worry too much about it though, but get 11-12mpg with camper and boat in tow, YMMV.
2017 Ford F-350, crewcab, 4x4, 6.7 diesel.
2016 Thunderjet Luxor 21' limited edition, Yamaha powered.
2016 Wolf Creek 840-SOLD, Arctic Fox 990 ordered.

jefe_4x4
Explorer
Explorer
Eagle,
Is that van 4WD? I don't see any diff hump on the front axle.
Very nice looking rig.
Gearing is a very subjective thing. There are so many things that are in play including the age and driving style. Even when you think you are dealing with absolutes....you are not. For once in my life, my gearing change worked out better than I thought it would even after crunching all the numbers and contingencies. So, I don't get too lathered up about others' findings. After all, they are there own, not yours.
jefe
'01.5 Dodge 2500 4x4, CTD, Qcab, SB, NV5600, 241HD, 4.10's, Dana 70/TruTrac; Dana 80/ TruTrac, Spintec hub conversion, H.D. susp, 315/75R16's on 7.5" and 10" wide steel wheels, Vulcan big line, Warn M15K winch '98 Lance Lite 165s, 8' 6" X-cab, 200w Solar

Bedlam
Moderator
Moderator
You're forgetting that having six gears that span the same ratios as five give you closer spaced gears that allow the engine to stay in the power band better. Constantly Variable Transmissions (CVT) many times can exceed the efficiency of a multi-speed automatic because the engine can constantly stay in its sweet spot verses going in bigger steps. Not being able to use your full gear range on a full time tow rig does not make sense. Now if your truck is also driven often while empty, then there is some merit in having a gear that is not used when loaded to tip performance toward empty use.

Host Mammoth 11.5 on Ram 5500 HD

Kayteg1
Explorer II
Explorer II
jimh425 wrote:
Kayteg1 wrote:
So where is the fuel saving coming from? Thin air?


We've probably beat this one to death ...

You are assuming that the vehicles compared would be able to do the same speed with the same RPM. That's ok, but means that you also have to agree that 3.73s don't have any advantage in mpg over 4.30s in the level ground case.

We've beaten that to death, but it is still not going far.
As I wrote in comparison between my 2 trucks, the one with lower numerical gearing was giving me abut 30 percent better mpg as it was still was able to pull 18,000 lb on overdrive. (not perfectly comparable trucks, so there is margin for error)
The only technical advantage of 4.30 gearing is starting with heavy trailer on 25 percent grade. The rest is just sacrificing fuel consumption for slightly more convenience of taking big grades without downshifting.
Would you have clear disclosure like
"by few downshiftings you do on the truck with different gearing you are saving $50 each time you refuel"
would you still buy it?

jimh406
Explorer III
Explorer III
Kayteg1 wrote:
So where is the fuel saving coming from? Thin air?


We've probably beat this one to death ...

You are assuming that the vehicles compared would be able to do the same speed with the same RPM. That's ok, but means that you also have to agree that 3.73s don't have any advantage in mpg over 4.30s in the level ground case. They would simply be substituting transmission gearing for rear end gearing.

If that is true, there would be no purpose of having more different rear end gearing.

'10 Ford F-450, 6.4, 4.30, 4x4, 14,500 GVWR, '06 Host Rainer 950 DS, Torklift Talon tiedowns, Glow Steps, and Fastguns. Bilstein 4600s, Firestone Bags, Toyo M655 Gs, Curt front hitch, Energy Suspension bump stops.

NRA Life Member, CCA Life Member

Kayteg1
Explorer II
Explorer II
jimh425 wrote:
Kayteg1 wrote:
We are comparing here gearing effect at highway speeds.


Maybe, you should read this article. Here's a quote from it that you seem to not understand.

How to Pick Pickup Truck Axle Gear Ratios to Improve Performance


Higher numerical ratios often increase fuel consumption. "The penalty in fuel economy varies because it depends so much on your use," says Slevin. "If you drive it with low loads, you will see a fuel economy decrease with a higher numerical axle ratio, particularly at highway speeds. If you are driving loaded a lot of the time, there is a point where fuel economy crosses over and is equivalent or even better." If you are driving in a city environment at slower speeds, you may also see a fuel economy increase with a higher numeric axle ratio.

General Motors compares its L96 gas engine paired with a 3.73 or 4.10 axle ratio. "If you look at your base vehicle at curb or lightly loaded, and you go from a 3.73 to a 4.10 final drive ratio, you will see a .2- to .3-mpg reduction on the highway at highway speeds during normal driving (unloaded)," says Martuch. "Hook a large trailer to it and start pulling grades, and you are going to see a .3- or even a .5- mpg reduction in fuel economy with a 3.73 because you are running so much higher rpms pulling the grades."

Ford offers its 6.2-liter gasoline engine with a 3.73 or a 4.30 axle ratio. "For anyone who will tow or do something with a heavy load the majority of the time, we have noticed that with a 10,000-lb. trailer, the fuel economy is significantly better -- in the mile-plus range -- when towing with the 4.30," states Tim Ogilvie, fuel economy engineer.

"The physics behind that is, with the 4.30 axle ratio, you're in sixth gear more of the time," Slevin explains. "With the lower numerical ratio, you are more likely to be in fifth or fourth."

Many dedicated commercial trucks do not offer a choice of axle ratios. For example, the Ford F-450 and F-350 DRW pickups only come with one gear ratio. "We have the one ratio because we suspect those trucks are primarily being used for a commercial-type application where they are all heavily loaded," says Slevin.


I hope you did notice how much BS that quote is giving.
Like " 3.73 or a 4.30 axle ratio. "For anyone who will tow or do something with a heavy load the majority of the time, we have noticed that with a 10,000-lb. trailer, the fuel economy is significantly better -- in the mile-plus range -- when towing with the 4.30,"
Well design transmission on 6th gear and 4.30 differential should give you +- the same gearing what 3.73 differential and 5 th.
So where is the fuel saving coming from? Thin air?

Kayteg1
Explorer II
Explorer II
You have lot of factors in vehicle economy, so you don't have "one shoe fits all" situation here.
Each vehicle is having its "sweet spot" and for example where my Ford Truck makes huge mpg at 40 mph, my Mercedes at this speed becomes gas guzzler as it makes way better mpg at 60 mph.
(I can find a speed where 8000 lb diesel pickup and 3500 lb gasoline car will make exactly the same mpg. )
As I mention, low numerical gearing will always give you best mpg, but with the cost of lesser convenience of more gear shifting, so it is always about sacrificing one feature for other.
Than if your transmission gives you 2000 rpm between the highest gear and one below, that sure brings additional issues.
Electric vehicles don't have those problems, so let's wait for electric pickups.

Nautique200
Explorer
Explorer
Nice van! I'd love to have one of those someday.
2016 Ford F450

2015 Arctic Fox 1150
2009 Trails West Warm Blood Trailer

deserteagle56
Explorer II
Explorer II
Just my experience with gearing....below is my 2007 E350. V-10, 5 speed torqshift tranny on 33" tires and it came from the factory with 3.73 gears. I drove it that way for a couple years and was never happy because the tranny would shift down on every grade no matter how gradual it was. Worst part was, because it spends most of its time on dirt roads at 45-50 mph the tranny was constantly shifting in and out of overdrive. Mileage was steady at 12 mpg whether I was driving 45 mph on dirt or 75 on the highway. On the advice of a local 4x4 shop I had the gearing changed to 4.56 - and I couldn't be happier. The constant shifting problem is gone and the van is just much more responsive. Several years later and with nearly 60,000 miles on her my overall mileage - 12 mpg!
1996 Bigfoot 2500 9.5 on a 2004 Dodge/Cummins dually

Jgwoods
Explorer
Explorer
I have a 2013 Ford F350 Lariat dually long bed crew cab with the 6.7 and I ordered it with 3.73 gears specifically because I only carry a truck camper- Northstar Igloo - and didn't think would need the lower gearing. 6 trips across the country up and down every mountain indicate I have more than enough power to take on any pass and accelerate up the hills.
My mpg has run a pretty consistent 12.5.

In 2013 the F450 was specified with only the 4.30 gears, the Lariats had a couple of choices.