Unbraked trailer, towing limitations

[tealboy]

Hey folks, I’m looking for a new tow vehicle for a rig coming in at 2700 lbs, loaded, per the scale. I decided to trade down to a more modest unibody suv like the highlander, telluride or similar with tow ratings of 5000 lbs.vs my customary Tahoe or sequoia since I tow infrequently (3-4x/year).

However, I discovered something I was unaware of, these vehicles often come with a 1000lb limit when trailers are “Unbraked”. My trailer does not have brakes, seems many in this lower weight class don’t, though some do. My state law requires brakes at 3000lbs.

This discovery caused me to to rethink the mid size suv and go back to the sequoia or a Tahoe. I was shocked to realize the big sequoia with 7500 lbs tow rating is also limited to 1000 lbs Unbraked. The Tahoe is 2000 lbs. The gm line of 1500 series pickups also 2k.

Wow. It seems the manufacturers are providing very conservative figures for Unbraked trailers due to liability so no matter what I pick outside of a 2500 series, I am out of compliance with manufactures recommendations/requirements and potentially subject to liability in an accident even though I’m within state law.

I know this group is far more informed than average people relative to towing but I see tons of smaller to mid size trailers like mine, including many boats, without brakes and suspect most are totally unknowing of these low thresholds bc the manufactures brag about high tow ratings but you need to look much deeper for the Unbraked limits .

I’m not sure what to do now. Thoughts on the subject and your awareness of these vehicle limitations?

[Grit_dog]

Or in other words, we’re now 7 pages into a non issue?

[valhalla360]

StirCrazy wrote:
this doesnt realy come into question in Canada as every provence has variations but any trailer over 2000 to 3000 lbs must have an independent braking system installed (except newfoundland for some reason) and surge brakes dont meet the requirments of being able to be applied seperatly.

common sence thought would come into play that if you exceed the max GVW then you need braking as that number i partialy derived from braking power if I remember right.. might be wrong though..

Most states have a similar requirement but it appears manufacturers are saying it's even lower.

As stated earlier, my guess is they are more risk adverse when a trailer without brakes causes an accident. They can point to their manual that says the owner was over the limits.

Legally, the authorities can always get you for related issues such as driving too fast for conditions, unsafe loading...lots of gotchas if they for some reason decide you were pulling too much trailer.

[JRscooby]

nickthehunter wrote:


If you’re in an accident and “failed to stop in time” you are just as liable wether your trailer had working brakes or not. The point is - don’t outdrive your ability to stop in time. The second point - keep your insurance up to date and adequate; that’s what it’s for.

True, when it comes to financial liability. OTOH, CDL drivers have faced criminal charges when it was suspected defective equipment played a part in accident. I no we normally don't hold RV drivers to the same standard, but they could.

[Grit_dog]

PButler96 wrote:

Grit dog wrote:


Another observation. It appears that age also affects one's fear of being sued in extremely unlikely scenarios.

Or the other way around. Such as when getting ready to drop the remainder of a 90' oak. The geezer across the road came running ( well shuffling) and made it a point to threaten to sue me if I dropped it on his house. 90' tree, house 200' away, hand me that chainsaw please.

The above has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread, as does 99% of the other posts in it lol.

Lol. I could see that happening.
I mean, I get it. I can watch my in-laws have less and less real world relevant things to deal with every day. And with that, the mind starts to wander.
However with both of them being in good health, it’s their choice to sit around and not do much of anything. I know others their age who are FAR more active and by default, do not sit around and pine over highly unlikely “what ifs.”
My in-laws just watch Fox News 10 hours a day and complain about politics incessantly! Lol

[Grit_dog]

blt2ski wrote:
Stir crazy.

You are correct, in that a vehicles GVW is guaged by braking. Or should we say, ONE OF the requirements to get a GVW.

You have also stated as others have, common sense says if your total is over the vehicles rated gvw, having brakes on the trailer is a good thing.

US braking laws for towed vehicles appears to be somewhere between 1000-4500 depending upon the jurisdiction you in. Generally speaking, unlike drivers licensing requirements, trailer brake requirements do not have reciprocity. Me traveling with a 3500 lb trailer where it could/would be legal in WA St, to a state with a 1000 lb requirement, could net me a moving violation ticket for no brakes. Then potentially paying for a flatbed to haul trailer to state line, shop to install brakes etc. I'll let reader decide if they want to gamble on this issue.

Marty

Except, even if one is not meeting the requirements of the state they’re in yet legal in the state they’re licensed in, I’m not certain it is not legal in the offending state.
But regardless, the trailer brake cops are NOT sitting at the state line waiting for tealboy to mosey on over with his nice little camper so they can bust him. Or anyone else, for that fact.

[Grit_dog]

nickthehunter wrote:

tealboy wrote:
I didn’t mean for this thread to turn into such a long debate, although there are a number of useful responses, so thank you. All of this came from the fact that I was unaware of these very low thresholds and the seemingly conservative approach from the manufacturers. Most of my towing has been 2-3k lb boats and trailers using large full size suvs. In some cases, the cargo inside of the suv might have been another 800 lbs but with published tow ratings of 8400, and a bit of ignorance, I thought I was doing it right. I never had a situation that necessitated emergency braking so I don’t know what would have happened but in all my routine driving under these circumstances, I didn’t have any close calls or problems, and no reason to think I was posing a risk to myself or others. Clearly I was wrong, even after giving myself some wiggle room for manufacturer conservativeness.

Now, I feel fairly educated on the subject and trying to make good decisions, particularly since I am in the market for a new suv. All of this is entirely related to my safety and the safety of others affected by my actions, and the risk of legal consequences. It has nothing to do with warranties, damaging the vehicle, or getting pulled over for a weight inspection since my loads wouldn’t trigger any obvious concerns. We live in a litigious society and at this age I worry about that stuff more, in addition to general safety.

If you’re in an accident and “failed to stop in time” you are just as liable wether your trailer had working brakes or not. The point is - don’t outdrive your ability to stop in time. The second point - keep your insurance up to date and adequate; that’s what it’s for.

Bingo. And Nevermind the fact that if your state has a 3klb limit for trailer brake requirements then in the eyes of the law, you’re not breaking any, in a criminal proceeding….
I wonder if the folks who are that worried about liability also wear 3 pairs of underwear each day. I mean, I did shart twice in one day once and the extra skivvies could have come in handy thst day!

[blt2ski]

Stir crazy.

You are correct, in that a vehicles GVW is guaged by braking. Or should we say, ONE OF the requirements to get a GVW.

You have also stated as others have, common sense says if your total is over the vehicles rated gvw, having brakes on the trailer is a good thing.

US braking laws for towed vehicles appears to be somewhere between 1000-4500 depending upon the jurisdiction you in. Generally speaking, unlike drivers licensing requirements, trailer brake requirements do not have reciprocity. Me traveling with a 3500 lb trailer where it could/would be legal in WA St, to a state with a 1000 lb requirement, could net me a moving violation ticket for no brakes. Then potentially paying for a flatbed to haul trailer to state line, shop to install brakes etc. I'll let reader decide if they want to gamble on this issue.

Marty

[StirCrazy]

this doesnt realy come into question in Canada as every provence has variations but any trailer over 2000 to 3000 lbs must have an independent braking system installed (except newfoundland for some reason) and surge brakes dont meet the requirments of being able to be applied seperatly.

common sence thought would come into play that if you exceed the max GVW then you need braking as that number i partialy derived from braking power if I remember right.. might be wrong though..

[PButler96]

Grit dog wrote:


Another observation. It appears that age also affects one's fear of being sued in extremely unlikely scenarios.

Or the other way around. Such as when getting ready to drop the remainder of a 90' oak. The geezer across the road came running ( well shuffling) and made it a point to threaten to sue me if I dropped it on his house. 90' tree, house 200' away, hand me that chainsaw please.

The above has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread, as does 99% of the other posts in it lol.

[nickthehunter]

tealboy wrote:
I didn’t mean for this thread to turn into such a long debate, although there are a number of useful responses, so thank you. All of this came from the fact that I was unaware of these very low thresholds and the seemingly conservative approach from the manufacturers. Most of my towing has been 2-3k lb boats and trailers using large full size suvs. In some cases, the cargo inside of the suv might have been another 800 lbs but with published tow ratings of 8400, and a bit of ignorance, I thought I was doing it right. I never had a situation that necessitated emergency braking so I don’t know what would have happened but in all my routine driving under these circumstances, I didn’t have any close calls or problems, and no reason to think I was posing a risk to myself or others. Clearly I was wrong, even after giving myself some wiggle room for manufacturer conservativeness.

Now, I feel fairly educated on the subject and trying to make good decisions, particularly since I am in the market for a new suv. All of this is entirely related to my safety and the safety of others affected by my actions, and the risk of legal consequences. It has nothing to do with warranties, damaging the vehicle, or getting pulled over for a weight inspection since my loads wouldn’t trigger any obvious concerns. We live in a litigious society and at this age I worry about that stuff more, in addition to general safety.

If you’re in an accident and “failed to stop in time” you are just as liable wether your trailer had working brakes or not. The point is - don’t outdrive your ability to stop in time. The second point - keep your insurance up to date and adequate; that’s what it’s for.

[valhalla360]

Thermoguy wrote:
I have driven half way across the state with that warning popping on and off towing a 12000 lb 5th wheel. Yes, my brakes had to work harder, but I stopped in aprox the same distance with or without.

If you stopped in the same distance, you must only be coasting to a stop. I had a braking issue on a 9000lb 5er and it was easily 50% longer to come to a stop.

[BB_TX]

Boomerweps wrote:

BB_TX wrote:

tealboy wrote:
…….

…. …….. The F150 for example Has a unbraked limit of 1500 lbs.

Where did you find this information? I have looked thru my manuals and cannot find anything addressing this. Not questioning you. Just curious where to find it.

Ford F-150 owner’s manual. For 2019 on page 311, “Separate functioning brake systems are required for safe control of towed vehicles and trailers weighing more than 1500 pounds (680 kg) when loaded”.

NOTE the word REQUIRED, not recommended. There are clear differences between these words, similar to shall and should. Yes, looking at the source material, somebody’s reading comprehension is suspect. This is a manufacturer’s requirement, not a legal one.

This is from the 2022 F150 on-line manual, page 404.

Ford Motor Company recommends separate functioning brake systems for trailers weighing more than 1,500 lb (680 kg) when loaded.

[Grit_dog]

You're still worrying too much. I'm going to presume you have no experience towing. As if you did, you would (should anyway) realize that it is quite easy and not cumbersome to pull a little trailer like you're talking aboot with any newer full size anything.

Another observation. It appears that age also affects one's fear of being sued in extremely unlikely scenarios.

[tealboy]

I didn’t mean for this thread to turn into such a long debate, although there are a number of useful responses, so thank you. All of this came from the fact that I was unaware of these very low thresholds and the seemingly conservative approach from the manufacturers. Most of my towing has been 2-3k lb boats and trailers using large full size suvs. In some cases, the cargo inside of the suv might have been another 800 lbs but with published tow ratings of 8400, and a bit of ignorance, I thought I was doing it right. I never had a situation that necessitated emergency braking so I don’t know what would have happened but in all my routine driving under these circumstances, I didn’t have any close calls or problems, and no reason to think I was posing a risk to myself or others. Clearly I was wrong, even after giving myself some wiggle room for manufacturer conservativeness.

Now, I feel fairly educated on the subject and trying to make good decisions, particularly since I am in the market for a new suv. All of this is entirely related to my safety and the safety of others affected by my actions, and the risk of legal consequences. It has nothing to do with warranties, damaging the vehicle, or getting pulled over for a weight inspection since my loads wouldn’t trigger any obvious concerns. We live in a litigious society and at this age I worry about that stuff more, in addition to general safety.

[JRscooby]

Thermoguy wrote:
Just for anyone that thinks there vehicle can't stop the trailer behind them. If you own a GM (maybe others, I have a chev so not sure of the others) if you get the dreaded steering stabilizer warning or check trailer wiring warning, the first thing you lose is your trailer brakes. The system just stops working if you get those warnings. I have driven half way across the state with that warning popping on and off towing a 12000 lb 5th wheel. Yes, my brakes had to work harder, but I stopped in aprox the same distance with or without. One can argue, larger truck, larger brakes, but I didn't have an issue stopping. I recently towed a medium sized Uhaul with my Explorer, also no brakes. It wasn't loaded too heavy, but never thought about the trailer brakes or stopping. Small trailer, small tow vehicle, no issues.

Somebody is missing the point. Put a load in your vehicle up to GVWR, and normal driving you are unlikely to notice issues stopping in the same distance as MT But, and it's a big but, when the kid runs the stop sign on the big wheel, MT will stop in a shorter distance. And when your GCVW is 175% of GVWR, like that heavy trailer, a if the truck in front of you did a panic stop you would eat the pillows.
The idea that somebody would drive halfway across any state shows a lack of judgement.