Unbraked trailer, towing limitations

[tealboy]

Hey folks, I’m looking for a new tow vehicle for a rig coming in at 2700 lbs, loaded, per the scale. I decided to trade down to a more modest unibody suv like the highlander, telluride or similar with tow ratings of 5000 lbs.vs my customary Tahoe or sequoia since I tow infrequently (3-4x/year).

However, I discovered something I was unaware of, these vehicles often come with a 1000lb limit when trailers are “Unbraked”. My trailer does not have brakes, seems many in this lower weight class don’t, though some do. My state law requires brakes at 3000lbs.

This discovery caused me to to rethink the mid size suv and go back to the sequoia or a Tahoe. I was shocked to realize the big sequoia with 7500 lbs tow rating is also limited to 1000 lbs Unbraked. The Tahoe is 2000 lbs. The gm line of 1500 series pickups also 2k.

Wow. It seems the manufacturers are providing very conservative figures for Unbraked trailers due to liability so no matter what I pick outside of a 2500 series, I am out of compliance with manufactures recommendations/requirements and potentially subject to liability in an accident even though I’m within state law.

I know this group is far more informed than average people relative to towing but I see tons of smaller to mid size trailers like mine, including many boats, without brakes and suspect most are totally unknowing of these low thresholds bc the manufactures brag about high tow ratings but you need to look much deeper for the Unbraked limits .

I’m not sure what to do now. Thoughts on the subject and your awareness of these vehicle limitations?

[StirCrazy]

Wadcutter wrote:
I was one of the first certified CVEO in the state. Did it for a lot of years, taught CVE for a lot of years. There's so much hooey on this thread concerning what a CVEO supposedly said that you can discount it. As soon as someone mentions CVEO enforcement on your RV then just page right on by their post. They don't know what they're talking about.
CVEO = Commercial Vehicle Enforcement officer. Read that very first word. Commercial. You pulling your popup or 43 ft 5er down the road is not a commercial vehicle. None of the commercial vehicle laws apply. Why? Think about it. Because you are not a commercial vehicle. It's clearly defined in the FMCSA. It's obvious some who are attributing something to a CVEO have never read any of the FMCSA.
Manufacturers do not make the law. It doesn't matter what the manufacturer says is the limit. That is not the law. The state doesn't make trailers, the manufacturers don't make the law.
For the person who said they said saw 4 people sitting in court to pay fines because they overweight on their RV or boat. They were not overweight on their RV or boat. They may be over on their registration for the weight they were hauling but they weren't overweight. Totally different. Know the difference in terminology.
Generally weight limits per axle are 20K per single axle. Sometimes 18K depending on the class of the highway. You're not going to be overweight on a boat or RV axle limit. You may be over on your registration limit. If you only paid registration to haul 8K and hauling 12K that's over on registration and is an offense. Pay for the higher rate registration and you can haul it. But it's not overweight.

so what about up here in Canada where CVO's are actual peace officeres and can pull over cars for speeding and so on. its not common but they do pull over rv's in BC if they see or suspect an infraction.

[JIMNLIN]

mkirsch wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:

I don't see where anyone is saying manufacturers make the law or the state makes trailers. Manufacturers make the trailers that MUST COMPLY with the law, period.

Yeah..the OPs topic is about un braked trailers. Most replies have been on topic...until now.

I bought a '97 16' 2900 gvwr bumper pull utility trailer with tandem 3500 lb axles with one axle braking from my trailer mfg just down the road.
Now the trailer mfg says they don't single brake a tandem axle trailer anymore...thankfully. Dangz thing was dangerous with just half a load.

A 2900GVWR trailer with tandem 3500lb axles was dangerous with "half a load" i.e. 1500lbs? Must have been one poorly built trailer.

You must have some numbers crossed around.

Sorry ..I forgot some folks think the trailers gvwr carries the load. I was referring to single axle braking on a tandem 3500 lb axle trailer carrying a 3k lbs on the bed.
The trailer was well built...just didn't have enough braking for the axle/tire capacities.
AS I mentioned the trailer mfg doesn't run single brakes anymore on this trailer but use same brand 3500 lb axles with brakes on the same trailer with a 7000 gvwr.

[JRscooby]

blt2ski wrote:
Scooby,

As I understand Federal Bridge Laws for max weights. Everyone, commercial, personal use per say gets 20k per axel. BUT, you can get limited in weight by the lack of distance between them. 0 to x' is 17k per, x to y' is 18500, over y' you get the full 20k.

The FBL is not understood by I would guess 2% of CDL drivers. Because I set my snot up to both scale as much as I could and maneuver easy city streets/construction sites I'm pretty familiar with.

A 2nd enforced here in WA st, not in Illinois per past comments from wadcutter, is lbs per inch width of tire. Minimum is 500 lbs per inch. A state can allow more. BUT you pull across a state line that goes with a lower amount, you get taxed/fined for being overwieght. Here if unit has duals, you get 600, singles 500 per inch.

I have heard of the width limit enforced for a long time. OTOH, law requires the load rating on sidewalls. I bet it would be a rare tire that was not wide enough to handle the rating. But this is a place where many RVers that have no idea what their rig weighs could get in trouble.

[blt2ski]

Something else to mention, at least here in WA st, leo/CVEO's enforce the laws equal between commercial and personal. BUT personal does not need to go thru scale houses over 10k and towing. But field could pull one over if they see enough issues with your personal rig. Granted a really tiny percentage chance,.

Marty

[mkirsch]

JIMNLIN wrote:

I don't see where anyone is saying manufacturers make the law or the state makes trailers. Manufacturers make the trailers that MUST COMPLY with the law, period.

Yeah..the OPs topic is about un braked trailers. Most replies have been on topic...until now.

I bought a '97 16' 2900 gvwr bumper pull utility trailer with tandem 3500 lb axles with one axle braking from my trailer mfg just down the road.
Now the trailer mfg says they don't single brake a tandem axle trailer anymore...thankfully. Dangz thing was dangerous with just half a load.

A 2900GVWR trailer with tandem 3500lb axles was dangerous with "half a load" i.e. 1500lbs? Must have been one poorly built trailer.

You must have some numbers crossed around.

[blt2ski]

Scooby,

As I understand Federal Bridge Laws for max weights. Everyone, commercial, personal use per say gets 20k per axel. BUT, you can get limited in weight by the lack of distance between them. 0 to x' is 17k per, x to y' is 18500, over y' you get the full 20k. A 2nd enforced here in WA st, not in Illinois per past comments from wadcutter, is lbs per inch width of tire. Minimum is 500 lbs per inch. A state can allow more. BUT you pull across a state line that goes with a lower amount, you get taxed/fined for being overwieght. Here if unit has duals, you get 600, singles 500 per inch.
Bus chassis and MH based on bus chassis, tank trucks trailers can get up to iirc 24k. NOT ALL MH get 24k.
My 1500 could go as high as 22000 gvw if I've paid that amount. BUT, now the local LEO/CVEO can get me for other issues not included in the federal bridge laws from a max wieght perspective. Can I stop my truck per field test in appropriate distance at iirc 20mph. I'll fail, I'm no longer allowed on the road until I meet spec.
Issue I see going back to initial post, is WHAT definition does a given state law for said trailer weight needing brakes? WA is an RCWxx, x being a number, RCW46 appears to be general catch all for speed wieghts, lighting etc for this.
If they use say tire width per FBL, OP and Chris probably have typical 155-185mm width tires, so 6-7". That's 3000-3500 ea, max allowed per axle 6000-7000 lbs. If a state has 3000 lbs, appears to be general max for brakes, if you have tires wider than 3"x2, you would be required to have brakes on the trailer. Or if by some fat chance of a very small percentage, they use manufacture spec, tire sidewall amount, the bar IMHO is going to be harder to hit. As most of the tires on smaller trailers like this are less than 1500-2000 lbs per tire. I had a 155-13 that was around 800-900 lbs per tire.
I know that while I would be legal with two trailers shown talked about here in WA st, I would not want 3000 lbs of unbraked trailer pushing me down some of the local 15-20% grades trying or hoping to stop. Or emergency stop at 60mph with a 15 series rig, with a all load, total 2000 over it's factory gvwr.
Marty

[JRscooby]

Wadcutter wrote:

That's correct. You posted it correctly. Not overweight. Over Licensed Gross Weight. Your "Licensed" weight.
They can use whatever fine schedule that state decides to use.
It's what I said initially. A person has to learn the difference. Licensed weight is what you pay in licensing fee to haul whatever weight you want to haul.
I taught truck weight law for a lot of years. I even attempted to teach it to truckers.

And you are right, a RV is not likely to be over axle weight, or max gross weight. (I have heard that MHs are allowed more weight/axle without permit than CMVs. Not sure, because it does not apply to me, don't need to know) OTOH, I know when it comes to CMVs, you can be legal here, cross a line on the map, and not. Are RVs the same? If, for example, I think the blue lenses look cool for markers on my TV, is that likely to be a issue if I get in a state where LEOs use blue lights on front to get you out of their way? By the same idea, LEO sees big 5th wheel, no plate on front of pickup. I would think, if he works a state that requires front plates he has reason to stop. If he looks at plate on the back, sees that licensed weight is low, he will not or should not weigh/write?
IMHO, no matter what you call it, if I lay money down on the county counter of the ***** table, if somebody else picks it up, I lost.

Edit; looks like the normal name for a game played with galloping dominos is not allowed

[JIMNLIN]

I don't see where anyone is saying manufacturers make the law or the state makes trailers. Manufacturers make the trailers that MUST COMPLY with the law, period.

Yeah..the OPs topic is about un braked trailers. Most replies have been on topic...until now.

I bought a '97 16' 2900 gvwr bumper pull utility trailer with tandem 3500 lb axles with one axle braking from my trailer mfg just down the road.
Now the trailer mfg says they don't single brake a tandem axle trailer anymore...thankfully. Dangz thing was dangerous with just half a load.
Sold it to a guy with a class A diesel pusher for his golf carts. He liked all the D rings I had bolted down trough the trailers frame rails (5 down each side).

[Wadcutter]

mkirsch wrote:
Oh I don't doubt that a "CVEO" said at least SOME if not ALL of the things being attributed to them. Even CVEOs are not all 100% up on the law or what it applies to.

To be certified in FMCSA laws is a lengthy school. The CVEO is going to know more about the law than what I'm reading in this forum. People say all the time "cops don't know the law", said by people who have never read the law. Driving a truck down the road sure doesn't make that person a legal expert in it and it doesn't matter how long they've been doing it.
Usually when someone says something totally off the wall it's due to 1 of 2 reasons.
1) They didn't understand what was being explained to them. They fill in the blanks with what they think the law is. Heard that way too many times.
2) The usual reason is tho they don't want to understand what's being explained to them because even tho they've never read a single statute in their life they think they know all about laws.

JRscooby wrote:

Well, if I use a tandem dump mostly to haul dirt and rough haul, and don't want to get into the heavy vehicle tax, I license it for 54,000 lbs. Most loads will be well under 16 tons, so I'm in good shape. OTOH, if I decide to load 20 ton of gravel, get caught, I can tell you exactly what it will say on the ticket(s) 1 will say I was OVER licensed Gross WEIGHT by (roughly 7000) lbs. And when I call the court, give them the ticket number, the will read the same formula as what the charge is for over axle or tandem weight. (That works out to $635.00 for 7000 lbs)

That's correct. You posted it correctly. Not overweight. Over Licensed Gross Weight. Your "Licensed" weight.
They can use whatever fine schedule that state decides to use.
It's what I said initially. A person has to learn the difference. Licensed weight is what you pay in licensing fee to haul whatever weight you want to haul.
I taught truck weight law for a lot of years. I even attempted to teach it to truckers.

[JRscooby]

Wadcutter wrote:
I was one of the first certified CVEO in the state. Did it for a lot of years, taught CVE for a lot of years. There's so much hooey on this thread concerning what a CVEO supposedly said that you can discount it. As soon as someone mentions CVEO enforcement on your RV then just page right on by their post. They don't know what they're talking about.
CVEO = Commercial Vehicle Enforcement officer. Read that very first word. Commercial. You pulling your popup or 43 ft 5er down the road is not a commercial vehicle. None of the commercial vehicle laws apply. Why? Think about it. Because you are not a commercial vehicle. It's clearly defined in the FMCSA. It's obvious some who are attributing something to a CVEO have never read any of the FMCSA.
Manufacturers do not make the law. It doesn't matter what the manufacturer says is the limit. That is not the law. The state doesn't make trailers, the manufacturers don't make the law.
For the person who said they said saw 4 people sitting in court to pay fines because they overweight on their RV or boat. They were not overweight on their RV or boat. They may be over on their registration for the weight they were hauling but they weren't overweight. Totally different. Know the difference in terminology.
Generally weight limits per axle are 20K per single axle. Sometimes 18K depending on the class of the highway. You're not going to be overweight on a boat or RV axle limit. You may be over on your registration limit. If you only paid registration to haul 8K and hauling 12K that's over on registration and is an offense. Pay for the higher rate registration and you can haul it. But it's not overweight.

Well, if I use a tandem dump mostly to haul dirt and rough haul, and don't want to get into the heavy vehicle tax, I license it for 54,000 lbs. Most loads will be well under 16 tons, so I'm in good shape. OTOH, if I decide to load 20 ton of gravel, get caught, I can tell you exactly what it will say on the ticket(s) 1 will say I was OVER licensed Gross WEIGHT by (roughly 7000) lbs. And when I call the court, give them the ticket number, the will read the same formula as what the charge is for over axle or tandem weight. (That works out to $635.00 for 7000 lbs)
If I had the lowest class plates on my pickup, got stopped pulling my popup, I have no doubt that ticket would read overweight by more than 3000 lbs, or $235 worth. I have a good idea that the boys pulling boats had that kind of ticket.
While you are correct, length and weight law enforcement is aimed at CMVs the idea that that means they can't be enforced against RVs is ridiculous. If they're set up expecting to catch a farmer running fat with a load of wheat, and you drive up with a plate saying I DID'T PAY FOR THIS WEIGHT, they might change your mind!

[mkirsch]

Oh I don't doubt that a "CVEO" said at least SOME if not ALL of the things being attributed to them. Even CVEOs are not all 100% up on the law or what it applies to.

I don't see where anyone is saying manufacturers make the law or the state makes trailers. Manufacturers make the trailers that MUST COMPLY with the law, period.

The real "hooey" in this thread is the "All the other kids are doing it, so why can't I?" justification for scoffing the law.

The real "hooey" in this thread is the hand-wringing over how you are such a menace on the roadways, towing your 1000-3000lb trailer without brakes in accordance with the law.

9+ pages and it boils down to "Put brakes on the d*mn trailer."

[Wadcutter]

I was one of the first certified CVEO in the state. Did it for a lot of years, taught CVE for a lot of years. There's so much hooey on this thread concerning what a CVEO supposedly said that you can discount it. As soon as someone mentions CVEO enforcement on your RV then just page right on by their post. They don't know what they're talking about.
CVEO = Commercial Vehicle Enforcement officer. Read that very first word. Commercial. You pulling your popup or 43 ft 5er down the road is not a commercial vehicle. None of the commercial vehicle laws apply. Why? Think about it. Because you are not a commercial vehicle. It's clearly defined in the FMCSA. It's obvious some who are attributing something to a CVEO have never read any of the FMCSA.
Manufacturers do not make the law. It doesn't matter what the manufacturer says is the limit. That is not the law. The state doesn't make trailers, the manufacturers don't make the law.
For the person who said they said saw 4 people sitting in court to pay fines because they overweight on their RV or boat. They were not overweight on their RV or boat. They may be over on their registration for the weight they were hauling but they weren't overweight. Totally different. Know the difference in terminology.
Generally weight limits per axle are 20K per single axle. Sometimes 18K depending on the class of the highway. You're not going to be overweight on a boat or RV axle limit. You may be over on your registration limit. If you only paid registration to haul 8K and hauling 12K that's over on registration and is an offense. Pay for the higher rate registration and you can haul it. But it's not overweight.

[StirCrazy]

blt2ski wrote:

Me Again wrote:
I will bet that there are gazillions of trailers in the 1500 lbs states running around without brakes. If hardly any manufacture puts brake on trailers under 3K, NONE would put brakes on a 1500 pound rated trailer.

Chris,
That would be a good bet to a point.....if you and I bought said NEW 3500 lb trailer in a state requiring brakes on a 1000 lb or greater trailer. If we got into an accident, or some other issue that is our fault, trailer lacking breaks when sold new, that would, could, should open up the dealer from a potential liability standpoint. Used from a non dealer would be a different issue.
I would think, if the trailer manufacture did not make the trailer to meet local jurisdiction standards, the dealer would have to install the appropriate parts before selling us the trailers. As they would should have to certify said trailer meets local jurisdiction guidelines for said trailer.
Back to earlier point re the Texas manufacture. When I first looked at that brand, they did not offer brakes on both axles, later they offered manufacture installed brakes on both axles for $X more to meet local specs with this in mind, I would think that the manufacture would offer brakes installed to meet local guidelines, so niether they, or dealer has liability issues.

Marty

and to add to the confusion for a dealer to sell a trailer in canada if it has a GVW over 2000lbs then it must be sold with break away trailer brakes. this insures all trailers sold in canada met the most strict of provincial requirments.

[Me_Again]

Lots of loosie goosie stuff happens. My Primo trailer came with an tire inflation sticker saying 65 PSI in the tires. It was delivered with LRC tires(50 PSI) tires vs LRD(65 PSI) tires. I contacted the manufacture and they were going to send me a corrected inflation sticker, which never arrived. In the mean time I upgraded it to LRD GY Endurance tires. 15" wheels were/are rated for LRD tires BTW. Put a 1" spacer between the frame and the Rockwell torsion axle mounts to give a little more fender to tire clearance. The trailer did come in at 3080 pounds GVW and has 400+or- pounds of tongue weight with the Kawasaki KRX 1000 on it. It tows fine, and now weighs another hundred pounds or so more with the brakes installation.

[blt2ski]

Me Again wrote:
I will bet that there are gazillions of trailers in the 1500 lbs states running around without brakes. If hardly any manufacture puts brake on trailers under 3K, NONE would put brakes on a 1500 pound rated trailer.

Chris,
That would be a good bet to a point.....if you and I bought said NEW 3500 lb trailer in a state requiring brakes on a 1000 lb or greater trailer. If we got into an accident, or some other issue that is our fault, trailer lacking breaks when sold new, that would, could, should open up the dealer from a potential liability standpoint. Used from a non dealer would be a different issue.
I would think, if the trailer manufacture did not make the trailer to meet local jurisdiction standards, the dealer would have to install the appropriate parts before selling us the trailers. As they would should have to certify said trailer meets local jurisdiction guidelines for said trailer.
Back to earlier point re the Texas manufacture. When I first looked at that brand, they did not offer brakes on both axles, later they offered manufacture installed brakes on both axles for $X more to meet local specs with this in mind, I would think that the manufacture would offer brakes installed to meet local guidelines, so niether they, or dealer has liability issues.

Marty