30 AMP home wiring Question

[Dutch_Oven_Man]

The previous owners of our home installed a 8/3 wire from the breaker box to the garage. I assume they intended to install a welder or something, but never did. The wire terminates in the breaker box and is not hooked up to anything, and the wires are loose in the metal outlet box.

I was hoping to install a 50 amp service, but realized I don't have a ground wire. I have a red, white and black wire only.

My question is, can I use the red wire as my ground for a 30 amp service? I'm thinking I would connect my hot and neutral as usual to a 30 amp single pole, and the red to the ground buss bar in the breaker box.

I found several people on here refer to www.myrv.us that has very good instructions about wiring a 30 amp service, but it doesn't address my question.

[C_Schomer]

I'm not a sparky but I've done a bunch of wiring with the guidance of a licensed sparky. Like mentioned... use a 2 pole 40A breaker so you don't overload the 8ga wire. You can still use the 50A rv connectors but it will have a 40A limit and hopefully the 120 loads are divided up in the panel so you can run everything you want w/o overloading either phase. If not... switch the loads/breakers so the loads you want to use are divided evenly between the two phases/120 bus bars. Just don't jury-rig plugs/receptacles and plug a 30A rv into that 40a circuit - there would definitely be the potential of burning things up! Phase tape is fine, the sparkys at work (and I) use it daily. Keep in mind, a ground can never be a conductor - it's to trip the breaker in case there is a fault to the equipment chassis and it keeps you from becoming the current path to ground. Neutrals and grounds go to the same ground bar in a main panel but sub panels have to have a "floating" neutral bar - no continuity between the neutral bar and the sub panel case. Make sure your breakers have the HACR (heating, air conditioning, refrigeration) rating if you want to run the ACs. They will take the higher inrush current from inductive loads. Craig

[spadoctor]

Stripping the RED back so it "looks like a ground" is illegal. You need to spiral wrap the red with green tape to designate it as ground. If it is not done to code and there is a problem your home owners insurance can be void. Do it right or don't do it!!!!

[dballentine]

ChooChooMan74 wrote:

I am still wayne_tw wrote:

Johno02 wrote:
The white wire is always a ground, and codes may just require an earth ground at the outlet.

This is totally incorrect! The white wire is a neutral and is required to complete the circuit. The ground wire will be bare and will ultimately connect to a ground to earth. Sometimes the neutral and ground are bonded, but the two are separate circuits.

on my panel, all the neutrals and any circuits that have a ground are all connected to the same bus.

But from the breaker box to the outlet (load), they are separate circuits. The white carries the return current from the load; if everything is working correctly, the current in the black wire is exactly equal to the current in the white wire.

The ground wire is often called the safety ground. It's there to carry the current if there's a short somewhere in the circuit.

[ChooChooMan74]

I am still wayne_tw wrote:

Johno02 wrote:
The white wire is always a ground, and codes may just require an earth ground at the outlet.

This is totally incorrect! The white wire is a neutral and is required to complete the circuit. The ground wire will be bare and will ultimately connect to a ground to earth. Sometimes the neutral and ground are bonded, but the two are separate circuits.

on my panel, all the neutrals and any circuits that have a ground are all connected to the same bus.

[time2roll]

Double pole 40a breaker would also work fine and would be my choice for #8 wire.

[KATOOM]

I may be wrong but I believe that 8 gauge is not large enough for 50 amps at 30 feet. Again, I may be wrong so someone correct me if so. Not a big deal for basic light usage but if you plan on using the A/C then you dont want to damage anything running on too low of amperage.

[Dutch_Oven_Man]

Thanks for all the responses. I live way, way out in the country. Believe it or not, we don't have a building codes department for the county, just a state electrical inspector and it's next to impossible to get him to come out unless you are building a house. We did a complete rehab on the house three years ago, including all new wiring and plumbing, and the inspector never came, just called to make sure we had the right number of smoke detectors. That being the case, I'm not too concerned about inspectors.

Anyway, I think I'm going to run a new ground so I can go ahead and make it a 50 amp. I'm only about 30 feet from the breaker box, so it shouldn't be to difficult.

[wilber1]

AniJet wrote:

Dutch Oven Man wrote:
..........My question is, can I use the red wire as my ground for a 30 amp service? I'm thinking I would connect my hot and neutral as usual to a 30 amp single pole, and the red to the ground buss bar in the breaker box.........

Yes you can. If you're worried about the next guy just strip the red insulation back as far as you can on both ends and make it look like a bare ground. It will work fine and no one will be the wiser.

To some of the answers here all I can say is "Really?"

My thought as well. Strip it back to the PVC so it looks like a ground.

[D_E_Bishop]

I have worked both as a residential electrician and as a home inspector for real estate agents/sellers/buyers. Real Estate Home Inspections cannot stop a sale and I have never had a municipal electrical inspection stop a sale. I think that may have happened but I don't think it is very common or likely.

Not knowing if the wiring was done with romex or some form of tubing or conduit makes it hard to say, "just pull an additional bare copper wire and problem solved". If the wiring is in conduit or tubing that is the best all around solution of getting a ground. Installing a separate ground rod is another good solution.

If the wiring is romex, I would just do as several have suggested, using a green colored covering on the red or black wire and hook up the outlet in a normal manner. When I run into this situation, and it happens often, I use green shrink tube to cover the entire length the wire from the entrance into the service panel or the outlet box to the breaker or outlet. Using the Red and Black may signify that it is a DC circuit.

Using three wire romex without a ground is very common from a ceiling fixture or outlet that is controlled by a switch. Switch boxes are not required to be grounded. In fact 15 amp switches are seldom grounded. Wet locations are an exception. Most residential wiring in tract homes use plastic boxes almost exclusively. Try and ground through plastic.

Something that has not been mentioned is that it is against code to install wire from a service panel to another location and not have them hooked to a breaker and a light, outlet or other electrical devise.

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the circuit so go ahead and wire it up if you do. Heck, if you're sure you know what you're doing get a permit and have the work inspected.

[AniJet]

Dutch Oven Man wrote:
..........My question is, can I use the red wire as my ground for a 30 amp service? I'm thinking I would connect my hot and neutral as usual to a 30 amp single pole, and the red to the ground buss bar in the breaker box.........

Yes you can. If you're worried about the next guy just strip the red insulation back as far as you can on both ends and make it look like a bare ground. It will work fine and no one will be the wiser.

To some of the answers here all I can say is "Really?"

[BoonHauler]

Dutch Oven Man wrote:
The previous owners of our home installed a 8/3 wire from the breaker box to the garage. I assume they intended to install a welder or something, but never did. The wire terminates in the breaker box and is not hooked up to anything, and the wires are loose in the metal outlet box.

I was hoping to install a 50 amp service, but realized I don't have a ground wire. I have a red, white and black wire only.

My question is, can I use the red wire as my ground for a 30 amp service? I'm thinking I would connect my hot and neutral as usual to a 30 amp single pole, and the red to the ground buss bar in the breaker box.

I found several people on here refer to www.myrv.us that has very good instructions about wiring a 30 amp service, but it doesn't address my question.

#8 wire is good for 50 amps. If the wiring has been installed in a metal conduit or metal jacketed flex that is the ground as long as the conduit (or flex) goes all the way back to the main panal and the main panel has been grounded or sometimes called earthened. This is done by a (most often) #6 bare copper wire connected to 1) a copper ground rod, 2) connnected to the incoming water line (not done vary often anymore, or 3) connected to a Ufer ground (a 30 foot long bare copper wire embedded in the concrete foundation.

The black wire is phase A, red wire is phase B, and the white wire is the neutral or sometimes refered to as the common wire.

Hope this helps

[pianotuna]

Pull new #6 wire.

[whiskyrunner]

Ask what is cheaper, your insurance deductable for the 5th wheel fire and electrical problems or the two hrs a electrician may charge you to do it right

[24rules]

this is what I did I have worked as a electrician for 20 years.i would use the black and red as your 120 volt hots the white would be a neutral since some of higher tech high voltage appliances with all the integrated circuit panels need a neutral to work properly and then get a 8 ft. ground rod and drive it in the ground and the run a 10 bare or coated wire to the ground lug on your rv outlet or sub panel whichever you are using because in my area sub feed panels all need a isolated ground which you will create with the ground rod do this and you will be adequate for all the nec codes that I have dealt with