ever feel like we need some Japanese RV manufactures

[seaeagle2]

In shopping for our first trailer, and reading the forums, it seems like quality control in RV manufacturing an oxymoron. Kinda like Detroit in the late 60's and early 70's, maybe we could get a Japanese RV manufacturer to enter the US market and shake things up. On the Service issue forum even though CW takes the hit for not being able to fix the stuff, it's the manufacturer that shipped it out that way, modern cars don't get much of a pdi anymore, yet they usually run just fine....

[jmtandem]

I think It's funny how people think the Japanese cars were the greatest thing since sliced bread. American muscle cars from that era are collected world wide. Ever look at what a hemi cuda from the 70's sell for. How about a Shelby mustang, Z28 camero.

By the way I did have a 225 slant six in a Valiant that still ran after 300k miles when it was sold still running.

I live close enough to enjoy Hot August Nights in Reno each year for a week. It is all about classic cars. You would be hard pressed to find a 'classic' Toyota Corolla among the 5000 or more cars. I recall in the mid 1980's Toyota made a mid engine van, a type of soccer mom van. It was junk. Even Toyota realized that and dumped the van. Had somebody purchased instead a Ford van with the 302, 351 or even the 460 engine it likely could still be on the road today. Same thing with a Dodge van with a 360, or a Chevy/GM van with a 350. I just don't get the Consumer Reports mentality of quality without longevity. I think they go together.

[CavemanCharlie]

I didn't read all 7 pages of this thread. But, the answer is NO, No, No. The OP quotes American cars in his original post. I had American cars from the 60's and 70's and I don't see what all the fuss was about.

Second, think about what happened to the US auto industry after everyone started buying all the Japanese crap. Millions of workers out of work and everything int eh country turning to crap.

Buying things from overseas is like slitting your own throat. But, as a country we are just to ignorant to see it.

Buy American or move out.

[ken56]

You may be on to something here...... lets apply this thinking to medical/health care services, oh oh, and insurance of all kinds too. Perception is reality.

[colliehauler]

jmtandem wrote:

When I look at the chassis, utilities, body materials, fixtures of even my entry level RV, it seems to add up to well over half the price I paid for it. So, advertising, distribution, dealer margin, labor, warranty work, etc. must make up the rest of it. So, forcing 20% higher labor cost through incentives and more inspections would only add a small single digit increase to the consumer. The kind of margin that is paid or discounted in the very last round of negotiations at the dealer, where they try to see if you'll pay for their document fee or whatever.

I don't think it would take a miracle, just demand, to have competition based on quality, rather than number of flat screen tvs. Now, how to quantify quality in order to compare it?

Airstreams don't change much year to year. Their interiors tend to be a little understated. They sell every one they make. Many other RV manufacturers try to sell on glitz, fancy frameless windows, many floor plans, outside kitchens, and all kinds of amenities whether the average user needs them or not. The founder of Airstream said that the product would not be changed for the sake of change, only for improvements. At the end of the day there would be far fewer RV's on the road if they cost what quality demands. Is that good? I don't know.

Given the choice I would much rather have had in 1970 a Plymouth Duster with the slant six that ran for almost forever than any Japanese Corolla or whatever they were back then. I think some that drank the Japanese cars are better kool-aid have by now realized that a lot of that was pure perception. And we all know that perception is reality for lots of people, reality is irrevelant. Today that Duster can be taken to car shows and people like to see it; the Corolla from 1970 has long seen its end. Is it all about quality? Maybe not. But, the one that is still around speaks volumes.

And products made by Airstream, Prevost, BigFoot, NorthernLite and other quality manufacturers are still around years after many of the other's products have gone by the wayside. Maybe in the end quality is actually less expensive on long term lifetime cost cycle basis.

I think It's funny how people think the Japanese cars were the greatest thing since sliced bread. American muscle cars from that era are collected world wide. Ever look at what a hemi cuda from the 70's sell for. How about a Shelby mustang, Z28 camero.

By the way I did have a 225 slant six in a Valiant that still ran after 300k miles when it was sold still running.

[Cloud_Dancer]

Obviously, the freedom to engage in enterprise is working very well. And apparently, caveat emptor seems to work just fine for many.
I just gotta be more "caveat emptor", that's all.....:B
I wish you guys with the answers would start manufacturing motorhomes. I would help you with some ideas that I think would work.....:B
Kidding aside, do you think the new Tiffin Allegro Bus 45LP is of suitable quality (worth the money)?

[jmtandem]

When I look at the chassis, utilities, body materials, fixtures of even my entry level RV, it seems to add up to well over half the price I paid for it. So, advertising, distribution, dealer margin, labor, warranty work, etc. must make up the rest of it. So, forcing 20% higher labor cost through incentives and more inspections would only add a small single digit increase to the consumer. The kind of margin that is paid or discounted in the very last round of negotiations at the dealer, where they try to see if you'll pay for their document fee or whatever.

I don't think it would take a miracle, just demand, to have competition based on quality, rather than number of flat screen tvs. Now, how to quantify quality in order to compare it?

Airstreams don't change much year to year. Their interiors tend to be a little understated. They sell every one they make. Many other RV manufacturers try to sell on glitz, fancy frameless windows, many floor plans, outside kitchens, and all kinds of amenities whether the average user needs them or not. The founder of Airstream said that the product would not be changed for the sake of change, only for improvements. At the end of the day there would be far fewer RV's on the road if they cost what quality demands. Is that good? I don't know.

Given the choice I would much rather have had in 1970 a Plymouth Duster with the slant six that ran for almost forever than any Japanese Corolla or whatever they were back then. I think some that drank the Japanese cars are better kool-aid have by now realized that a lot of that was pure perception. And we all know that perception is reality for lots of people, reality is irrevelant. Today that Duster can be taken to car shows and people like to see it; the Corolla from 1970 has long seen its end. Is it all about quality? Maybe not. But, the one that is still around speaks volumes.

And products made by Airstream, Prevost, BigFoot, NorthernLite and other quality manufacturers are still around years after many of the other's products have gone by the wayside. Maybe in the end quality is actually less expensive on long term lifetime cost cycle basis.

[consumeratlarge]

Quote:

And maybe if American manufacturers took pride in the final product like Airstream and Prevost, etc. do then this issue would be almost moot. There still will be things that need to be fixed because we are not perfect but it would greatly move most RV's to the higher quailty side of the ledger. We can make the finest products in the world if we want, we just need to want and customers need to buy. Look at Boeing, nobody makes a better airliner and we make it. Many feel that Harley makes an excellent product, they are a sought after motorcycle in the country that makes Japanese motorcycles. We can do better, we just have to want to and find those that want to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------


It's true that we led the world in aerospace, although, sadly we've let our space shuttle program end. And it took a multinational European consortium to make a competitor for Boeing. And old muscle cars and Harleys are sought after in countries overseas. Software, music, movies, there are things that people buy, (or download for free) everywhere in the world.

I still think that quality can be more of a state of mind, or attitude, than an optional accessory that you pay for. Management incentives, honest, public feedback as a consequence for bad quality control, these things have got to help, and wouldn't mean tripling the price of the products. Marking the hole locations, for instance, instead of blindly shooting fasteners that don't hit the underlying support, might cost a tiny bit more, but labor is not even 50% of the price of typical RV.

When I look at the chassis, utilities, body materials, fixtures of even my entry level RV, it seems to add up to well over half the price I paid for it. So, advertising, distribution, dealer margin, labor, warranty work, etc. must make up the rest of it. So, forcing 20% higher labor cost through incentives and more inspections would only add a small single digit increase to the consumer. The kind of margin that is paid or discounted in the very last round of negotiations at the dealer, where they try to see if you'll pay for their document fee or whatever.

I don't think it would take a miracle, just demand, to have competition based on quality, rather than number of flat screen tvs. Now, how to quantify quality in order to compare it?

[jmtandem]

Everybody I've talked to has had to get little things fixed. Nothing that would be a deal breaker, but little things that could have been caught with just a little bit more care. Same thing in every new home I've done, somebody in almost every trade makes an oversight here and there, and it all has to be 'caught' before the customer gets there.

There are so many subsystems in a motorhome, and so many handwired circuits, problems seem to happen at many price points. I love every rv I've had, but had to fix them. Whereas the chassis' are more dependable, maybe because they've had so many standardized assembly operations with so much repetition. I'm thinking that the F53 chassis is just as good as a Toyota, in terms of reliability. I'll bet the Freightliners and others are, too.

I think the OP's post reflects the feeling that if there were a far sighted approach to quality (like Airstream, Prevost, etc) that it would mean less things breaking or not being made right in the first place. And the opposing argument is that we wouldn't pay for that level of quality. Well, honest competition usually rewards the marketplace with better products. An RV review organization based on factual statistics would be nice to refer to, at least for the buyers.

And maybe if American manufacturers took pride in the final product like Airstream and Prevost, etc. do then this issue would be almost moot. There still will be things that need to be fixed because we are not perfect but it would greatly move most RV's to the higher quailty side of the ledger. We can make the finest products in the world if we want, we just need to want and customers need to buy. Look at Boeing, nobody makes a better airliner and we make it. Many feel that Harley makes an excellent product, they are a sought after motorcycle in the country that makes Japanese motorcycles. We can do better, we just have to want to and find those that want to pay for it.

[tomman58]

We've been to many, many RV shows over the years and have purchased Jaycos over the years with no problems in quality or value. That said we have seen many ignorant folks that did zero homework buying TTs that are known to be junk. They look at the low price and don't figure why it is so. They get all gitty over a patio on the side or back that is useless and unsealable in most RV parks. The list goes on and on from small counter tops to islands with sinks (no such thing as a level TT)to drawers that will fall apart in the first month.
It is the consumer that determines the market and there is no Jap or foreign need.

[Cloud_Dancer]

I happen to know what "quality" is,.....honest.
But, I've always had to settle for less. Perhaps next time it might be different. You never really know until AFTER you buy it.

[4X4Dodger]

***From Consumeratlarge: "I wonder if there was a magazine or website, like consumer's reports, that reviewed quality control honestly, (without fear of losing ad dollars), that it would be possible to have instantaneous improvement in our domestic RV's, though?"***

I have made this point here before and it bears repeating. If what you suggest above really happened the quality would improve shortly. This is proven everyday by the automotive press that reviews cars and trucks.

If Mr Lemonis and GSE would stop being the lapdog of the RV industry and take a strong and principled editorial stand on RV Build quality in Trailer Life and Motorhome magazines things would change.

Companies do respond to market pressure and this is one of the surest ways to create it.

However as I read the vast majority of the posts in this thread it leaves me wondering if anyone actually travels overseas or has ever taken economics beyond 101. So much Jingoism and Nationalism is breathtaking. If a foreign manufacturer started building HIGH quality affordable RV's in this country the other manufacturers would have to respond in kind or be left behind. This is what happened in the late 70's and early 80's with the US auto makers when faced with clearly superior products from Japan. Detroit then turned itself around and started improving what had been frankly a terrible product. Now our cars are some of the best in the world.

Was Detroits lack of innovation and quality caused by drug addled or immigrant workers? NO. that's an absurd notion. It is very simply the consumer demand of the majority of RV buyers for LOW Prices.

[FunnyCamper]

consumeratlarge wrote:

FunnyCamper wrote:
what the heck are you people buying?

I had 5 campers. A Elkhorn truck camper, 2 Jayco campers, 1 Forest River camper and my current Heartland toyhauler.

I never had problems with any of these. minor stuff on delivery under warranty...but what monster problems are you people having out there????

Japanese RVs---heck no. geez.

I've enjoyed the good quality of all my campers I owned.

Everybody I've talked to has had to get little things fixed. Nothing that would be a deal breaker, but little things that could have been caught with just a little bit more care. Same thing in every new home I've done, somebody in almost every trade makes an oversight here and there, and it all has to be 'caught' before the customer gets there.

yea but we do not live in a perfect world with perfect people making tons of perfect******to buy every day in our lives. be nice if it was that way.

I bring home alot of******thru the years from stores that are defective and have to be returned or replaced within a short time.
My kids IPAD charger, new, the whole charge end broke off into bits about 6 days after purchase. I mean....

How micro small on 'quality' does it become useless to even talk about this stuff? Can quality be better on alot of things sure but it is what it is. More money thrown at your purchase is what buys superior quality and even then the 'tiny little things' can still be overlooked.

[RobertRyan]

Terryallan wrote:
Do remember. If they were made by the Japanese. there would be nothing but recalls, and in truth. Japanese quality is not what you think it is. It is in fact beginning to trail US quality.

So no I don't want a Japanese anything

Japanese vehicles coming from Japan, generally have good quality, unique US Japanese vehicles , good question. We have had US vehicles imported into Australia, generally have had very poor quality. Lately, they are trying to get their act together, but still perception of Brand X quality wise

[RobertRyan]

jmtandem wrote:
SeaEagle,

Look at Prevost or Airstream, you too can then learn what quality costs in an RV. And if you don't want a motorhome or travel trailer there are quality truck cabover campers for $50,000+ and fifth wheel trailers for way north of $150,000. Keep looking, you will find quality and then you will likely say you don't want to pay for that quality. So......the RV industry makes RV's for every price range and amazingly the lower priced units are not the highest quality. Shocking revelation, isn't it?

Seems to be a big problem with the USRV industry, you get what your paid for, so do not complain if it is rough around the edges

[consumeratlarge]

FunnyCamper wrote:
what the heck are you people buying?

I had 5 campers. A Elkhorn truck camper, 2 Jayco campers, 1 Forest River camper and my current Heartland toyhauler.

I never had problems with any of these. minor stuff on delivery under warranty...but what monster problems are you people having out there????

Japanese RVs---heck no. geez.

I've enjoyed the good quality of all my campers I owned.

Everybody I've talked to has had to get little things fixed. Nothing that would be a deal breaker, but little things that could have been caught with just a little bit more care. Same thing in every new home I've done, somebody in almost every trade makes an oversight here and there, and it all has to be 'caught' before the customer gets there.

There are so many subsystems in a motorhome, and so many handwired circuits, problems seem to happen at many price points. I love every rv I've had, but had to fix them. Whereas the chassis' are more dependable, maybe because they've had so many standardized assembly operations with so much repetition. I'm thinking that the F53 chassis is just as good as a Toyota, in terms of reliability. I'll bet the Freightliners and others are, too.

I think the OP's post reflects the feeling that if there were a far sighted approach to quality (like Airstream, Prevost, etc) that it would mean less things breaking or not being made right in the first place. And the opposing argument is that we wouldn't pay for that level of quality. Well, honest competition usually rewards the marketplace with better products. An RV review organization based on factual statistics would be nice to refer to, at least for the buyers.


I wonder if there was a magazine or website, like consumer's reports, that reviewed quality control honestly, (without fear of losing ad dollars), that it would be possible to have instantaneous improvement in our domestic RV's, though?