Towing ability of 2004 Suburban 5.3L, 4.10, 4WD

[MartyW]

Can anyone give first hand knowledge of the towing abilities of a 2004 Suburban 4WD with 5.3L engine and 4.10 axles? It is 7200 MVGW and has Z82 hd towing rpo.

Thanks!

[carringb]

My main cautionary note relates to scope creep.... How much more will end up deciding to replace when its all said and done. There's a lot of components in your rig that are probably approaching "replace-soon" condition simply due to age. Things like the radiator, fuel pump, spider injection (unless you have TBI), brake lines, cooler lines and other aux components are not uncommon in your vintage GM. Even if they are functioning now, you could be looking at an expanding list of things to replace as parts come out and are analyzed or tested.

Just throwing that out so you aren't hit with sticker shock if those issues come up.

[BenK]

Marty...you said something that gets me...

Am fully retired, but continue to consult and volunteer...deciding whether to
take SS or delay to increase the $$...bottom line on that is how long I 'think'
am going to last... ;(

Mom and dad allowed me to build a 3 car garage on the back of their lot when
was in high school. There is an alley and GREAT for a teen

3 electric welders, one gas welder, plasma arc cutter, drill presses, band saws,
metal and wood working shop. A 12 foot long workbench with a 10Ga galvanized steel
top. 40 gallon, 2 stage compressor and plumbed all over the shop

Home made engine hoist with a 2 ton chained hand lift and did lift the whole
front end of my olk 73 Blazer K5.

3 engine stands, etc, etc...but am hating feeling lazy when there is a need
to get on that cold concrete to wrench something. More and more taking whatever
to the mechanic and paying someone else to do the wrenching that I'd have jumped
at and finished before the end of the day...

[BenK]

IMO, any reputable source will be fine and the biggie is both your gut and the
local shops that will be servicing your Sub

Long tube headers are tuned for low end performance and does make a difference.

Forgive me on locality, as I'm out here in the SF Bayarea and headers do last
longer than you folks back there in severe ambients. Ex's mom is from Nashville
and buddy grew up in Nashville (now Virginia) and in visiting found how cold and
blazingly hot/humid.

That means if you do go headers, suggest having them ceramic coated (Jet). Might
be a bit too much overhead for you, but when my Sub goes headers, they will be
ceramic coated

Knew you already had the tow package and the OEM external ATF cooler, but I'm
of the opinion (greatly debated here and other forums) of going as large as
you can. Albeit know that ATF can be too low in temp. ATF needs enough temp to
vaporize any possible moisture during cool down over nite. Develops or turns
acidic to rot out the tranny from the inside.

Also know in your area there are some pretty good hills/mountain ranges. That
is where the ATF takes a beating...along with towing heavy

Since I keep mine a loooong time, know and learned to keep my temps on the low
side of the spec. Both vehicle spec and fluid spec

Can not stress how important it is to get a solid or more solid bottom end and
that means a 4 bolt

[MartyW]

BurbMan, I've done rebuilds and swaps in the past, but I'm too darn old to do those anymore, and I don't have much electronic equipment for the new computer stuff. Once carburetors and throttle bodies went away I'm sorta out of the loop.

I've gotten quotes on the engine swap (not trans yet) from a couple of folks, and while I don't want to keep a man from making a living, I still want to get as good a job as I can for a reasonable price. One shop quoted me the same price as I got from my local Chevy dealer. Too much. After explaining he was high, he did come down $600, but I still think he's a little high, but this was with the higher cost Jasper engine.

Your mention of Jasper does get me to wondering. If our local shop mentioned Jasper and since there are so many dealers across the land maybe this is a good way to get across-country coverage while traveling? Even with a GM crate engine, I'm not sure that the installation would be covered anywhere other than where we have it done. It does get me thinking about Jasper a bit more. I'm going to study their engines and transmissions. Maybe I can get a break by getting both from the same place?
MartyW

[BurbMan]

Marty, sounds like you are ahead of me on research, I just thought I would throw that option out if you weren't familiar with those guys. You're certainly not going to go wrong with a GM crate engine either. Are you doing the transplant yourself? If so, I would run the trans over to a local rebuilder and let them work on the 4L60E while you;re doing the motor swap.

[MartyW]

Thanks BenK and BurbMan for the info.

BenK, Our '98 came from the factory with the Z82 heavy duty towing options, so it has external engine oil cooler and external trans cooler. The trans cooler is good size but not as large as some I've seen. Do folks often replace the stock HD trans cooler with larger ones?

BurbMan, the Jasper rebuilt 5.7L (with RV cam) (not sure if 2 or 4 bolt main) is what my local shop recommends but the price is roughly $2650 after paying shipping, tax, etc, whereas the 4-bolt GM crate engine with 100k mile warranty can be at our door for $2100. I've had GM crate engines before and never had any problems. Thanks and I'll do some checking on the Jasper engine and trans units.

MartyW

[BurbMan]

FWIW, you can get a reman 5.7 from Jasper for $2224 plus core, shipping, etc. They also have the 4L60E for $1912. I put in a Jasper reman 4L80E this summer when the Burb died in Murray KY. What I like about the Jasper unit is the 3 year 100,000 mile warranty, and there are something like 2000 independent Jasper shops across the US, so if you have issues when out of town, you can take it to any Jasper shop for warranty service. Buddy of mine is a Jasper dealer in NY and says they are very reasonable on warranty coverage especially if the unit was installed by a Jasper dealer.

As far as the transmission goes, you may do better having yours rebuilt with HD parts by a local guy, if you know a good rebuilder in your area. Just some other options to consider.

From The Jasper website on the 5.7:

We have updated the main bearing from the Federal Mogul RAMP & FLAT
DESIGN to the KING BEARING. This bearing is an aluminum silicon
material. The advantage of the King bearing are:
1. Wear resistance- silicon reduces friction and prevents wear.
2. Fatigue strength- maximum load capacity
3. Improved oil clearance tolerance- reduces noise, vibration, and
excess oil flow.
4. Exceptional corrosion resistance- defends against corrosion for
coolant leaks from intake gasket failures and/or poor maintenance.
5. Outstanding service life- exceeds OEM engine durability of 150,000
miles.
ALSO:
--To improve oil flow and oil pressure, a larger oil pump pick-up
tube is installed. JASPER also uses an undersize cam bearing for
tighter oil clearances providing better oil pressure. This provides
better lubrication in the engine.
--To help provide better oil pressures, JASPER also uses an undersize
cam bearing which can operate in tighter oil clearances. With the
issue of rear seal leaks, the latest design rear oil seal is used. It
has dual sealing lips and dust seals made of Viton / Teflon. This
seal is more durable and with it's use less leaks result.
--100% new head bolts are installed to improve head clamp load to
reduce head gasket leaks.

[MartyW]

Thanks BenK for the info.

While raising our youngsters we towed with a Caprice wagon with 400 sb and turbo 400 trans. When we rebuilt the trans in that one we did opt for the shift kit and it was a great puller. We liked the feel of the harder shifts.

For now, to keep costs down, we'll probably stick with stock exhaust (in good shape), but the headers are good to keep in mind. I've never used headers and I always associated them with needed higher volumes at higher rpms's. I never thought of them helping with low rpm torque/hp. Are the long tube headers a significant boost for the low rpm hp/torque? If so it might be something we add later once we absorb the cost of new engine and trans.

I'm still not sure about which trans to choose. My current gut feel is telling me to go with a local shop that can use heavier parts (the ones that gm went cheap on) and also add a shift kit. I looked into Monster transmissions once and I understand that one of the nice-for-towing things in their 4L60-E builds is that they eliminated the half shifts, and for towing that would be nice. I'm not sure how "custom for towing" I can get a local 4L60-E but I have heard some negatives about Monsters so I don't think I'll opt for one of those. I'm thinking a local shop/purchase "might" be better for a trans but not sure. Any opinions appreciated.

MartyW

[BenK]

PPS...put in the largest external plate type ATF cooler you can afford

They will be about $69-$80 bucks locally and should be similar back there

My Silverado has had it since Dad gave that truck to me...it was his grocery/butcher
shop's truck

[BenK]

Have a JEGs performance 5.7L in my 1980 C10 Silverado and it's at about 60K miles
Hurt my back and couldn't do the work myself then

Like this engine a lot, but not as much as the one I built with Stainless Valves,
280 Cam, worked head (springs, 3 angle valve grind, ported, flowed & matched, CC'd
and a few other goodies). Caught youngest daughter beating up Mustangs out on the
local boulevard...more than once... 😉

For sure to get the 4 bolt main, as that is what it came with. Difference between
a 'car' 5.7L and 'truck' 5.7L is a 2 bolt main vs 4 bolt main.

Hope you have the G80 diff (locker, but open diff below 200RPM on your 98). If
not, consider it if you will be in gravel/etc slippery conditions often

Forgot to say 'long tube' headers if you wish to put a bit more into it since
it is 'out'. Stuck with single exhaust if you have smog testing. If not, then
go true duals but out the sides, as straight out back will have the sound waves
bounce off the trailer to drone the interior of the Sub

Forget about intake mod's as that requires both more $$$ and re-engineering
knowledge...unless you do have that boy racer & gearhead in you...

Also for sure to get a new automatic, as it is the most complex assembly
in any GMT400 and even newer. Automatics are the weak link in any TV
and if I could have, ordered a manual for my Sub

I have a 'shift kit' on the Silverado, but note that it is boy racer stuff and
WILL wear out the drive line U-Joints sooner. It is good for towing, as with the
faster shifts has it in 'slip' mode a shorter period of time. 'Ride quality' folks
typically do NOT like shift kits, as it is much harder and when 'on it', might
have them feel it more in that 'snap' of their necks...

PS...I keep mine forever or till the wheels fall off and/or I don't/can't
fix it anymore. Best bang for my buck...

[MartyW]

Thanks to all for your time, replies and honest opinions.

And BenK, many thanks for the 400 vs 800 platform info. We have cars for our commuting and nice rides and the '98 burb is for working and towing.

After doing a lot of soul searching between my wife and me and also talking with others and with the expert opinions here, we have politely told the party with the 2004 burb that we won't be taking it. We think it makes more sense for us to replace the engine and transmission, so now I'll be looking to finalize the purchase and installation. JEGS has a little better price than SummitRacing for their new (not rebuilt/remanufactured) GM crate engines. The '98 K1500 calls for GM crate engine "12530282" but I've contacted their tech folks to see if the "12530283 L31-R" (4-bolt main with 1.94" intakes) will be a direct replacement without any modifications or reprogramming and they say yes, definitely a direct replacement. This engine can be had from Jegs, delivered, for slightly less than $2k. I asked Jegs about a towing transmission and one from them is over $3k so I'm not sure what to do about a transmission yet but that might be a good one as it is built specially for towing and is said to be able to handle 500 hp. It looks like I can replace the engine and transmission in the '98 burb for about what I was going to put as a down payment on the 2004 burb.

Many thanks again to all, and any opingions about the engine/trans swap greatly appreciated also.
MartyW

[BenK]

OP is asking for personal preferences...

Mine is to keep a known entity vs spending more money on an unknown...even
a new vehicle never owned before

First, your El Cheapo replacement...indicative of either or both neglect
from the previous owner(s) and/or laid around un-attended for a while

The chances of it going south is GREAT, IMHO. Any cleaning fluid will
both have the potential of the gunk floating around to cause a problem
somewhere else....or that during the cleaning, it allows something going
metal to metal...and...continue to a bit after it is flushed out...there
will be some of that stuff left in there. Albeit diluted by the fresh
charge of engine oil

Your 1998 is a GMT400. GM has truck 'platforms' from which they derive
SUVs and others (CUV's are from car platforms)

Here is the Wikipedia explaining GM platforms: GM GMT platform outline

A 2004 is a GMT800. Much better 'car' attributes and continues in the
GMT900 and into the GMTK2xx (assume, as I've not checked out the 2014's yet)

Note that my opinion(s) is in the vast minority here. My trucks (includes
SUVs) are for 'working' or 'towing'. Although I did commute for over
7 years with my GMT400 K3500 Suburban (it's a 8.6K GVWR, but ordered
it with the F60 option...1 ton front snow plow prep package and
the rear axle is the exact same as the 1 ton dually of that year..except
for the brake cylinders and MC). That ride quality is NOT on my
have to have list, but at the bottom of my nice to have list

Once on the highway, there is little difference in ride quality
and noise between my GMT400 and GMT800/GMT900, IMHO. It is in the
rough that the 'nicity' of the newer shows and again, I bought my
trucks as trucks, not for car like. I've gotten 15.4MPG pure highway
with my 7.4L, but normally pure highway is in the 12.x range...but
I'm a boy racer and mostly 'into it' :B

Newer normally begets less worn everything, but assumes a kind previous
owner(s) that did not beat it up, and used the manual maintenance
schedule/materials

Anytime an engine is pulled, I recommend rebuilding the automatic.

Ditto liking the GMT400 over the new models...check out my sig and pic
of my Sub

So back to your question: decide what you 'want' & 'need' out of this

If you wish a nicer ride and updated amenities, then get the GMT800.

If you like the GMT400, then get a Mr Goodwrench engine and tranny
Or consider a performance 5.7L and headers. That makes a huge difference
and some over at my old Suburban forum reports 20MPG with 3.73's and
OEM tire OD

That will be less $$$ than buying a used GMT800, but the GMT800 WILL
be nicer riding. Also note that GMT800's and newer are a bit smaller
interior.

Almost forgot...GMT800's receiver is junk. If the previous hasn't,
and you buy one, change it with a traditional receiver. About $150-$200
plus about 1 hours labor

Good luck and report back on how it goes on this thread

[APT]

2000+ 2500 with 6.0L should have the same fuel economy, more power as your 5.7L. Plenty of them in the $10-15k range.

[blt2ski]

The problem with a cutting agent in the oil......is once and if these area;s are clean, could another issue pop up. Probably best to rebuild or put a new LB in the thing, then you know what you have. OR, as you have noted, go to a newer burb that hopefully does not have any issues........rebuilding the old motor might be the better option in this case.

Marty

[MartyW]

Thanks for the replies.

The reason for replacing the engine is that the original engine blew (spun a bearing) climbing our Tn Monteagle mountain year before last. I (mistakenly) opted for a used engine and now I have one that I can't trust for long hauls to the Atlantic coast where we like to vacation. I've pulled the boat (much lighter than the camper) several times on short hauls ok but the used engine has an oil circulation problem to #1 & #3 rocker arms (front two cyls on driver's side) and I'm not sure how to fix it other than to replace the engine. When the engine oil is cold there is no oil flow to those two rockers and so there is rocker arm knock when cold and warming up. Once the oil is warm it will flow to those rockers but with less volume than should be there and there is still a valve "tick" there. Other than that oil flow issue the used engine is good and pretty strong, but not as strong as the original engine, and probably not nearly as strong as a new engine would be. I've been running a cutting agent with the oil (5w30 Valvoline blend) for about 5k miles now hoping that the blockage would be cut but no luck so far. It may be getting slightly better but I still don't think I'd trust it on long hauls. I have a friend who is a Chevy tech at our local dealership and he first thought the problem was a collapsed lifter so he replaced the lifters and that's when he noticed that with cold oil there was no flow to those two rockers, but when the oil was warm the flow would begin. He said no way to clean those oil galley's other than vatting the block which means engine replacement. Maybe someone here might have some ideas on a cutting agent that might work better without dumping so much sludge that the oil pump screen would get clogged. Many thanks to all for opinions.
MartyW