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Propane overfill by a "professional"

uScott
Explorer
Explorer
Looks like I'll be shopping for a new local propane guy. Which I should have already done, but there's only one last straw.

I took one of my 30# cylinders down to fill from dead empty. This genius somehow managed to cram 7.6 gallons into it. By my math, that's about 88% capacity. Did I mention we'll be taking this tank from northern Utah (temps 10s-20s) to southern Arizona (40s-70s)? I have a plan to drain the tank down some before we travel, but sheesh.

I guess this guy was taught that horizontal-use cylinders are also filled in the horizontal position, so that's what he does. Never mind the big bright label that says "FILL IN VERTICAL POSITION ONLY", which I've pointed out to him a few times. His way must be the right way, 'cause you can get 'em more fuller, right?

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a licensing body that would like to hear about this....
2001 Lance 1121 TC loaded
1998 Dodge 3500 QC CTD DRW
50 REPLIES 50

westend
Explorer
Explorer
wa8yxm wrote:
westend wrote:
The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air to exit the tank slowly. The over-pressure relief valve opens instantaneously and it is not slow. When they open there is a release of liquid propane and is it not a small release.


One question westland.. You say "The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air..

HOW DID THE AIR GET IN THE TANK?

During the initial fill the tank is purged, all air is exhausted into a storage tank from which the propane that gets out with it is recovered later.. There is no air in the tank to displace it is all propane.

The valve you are speaking of is the liquid overfill indicator valve (long form) when it starts shooting WHITE, meaning frost by the way (condensed and frozen water vapor from the air around it on the OUTSIDE of the tank) the tank is full.

THIS is the proper way to fill a tank, not weight, not till the valve closes, but till the spitter spits.


On page 5:
Chris Bryant wrote:

westend wrote:

The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air to exit the tank slowly.


Not exactly correct- there should be no air in the cylinder to be displaced- the cylinder should be urged, and contain no air at all.
Sorry, you're right, I should have said "gas".


And, no, I was not referencing the fill bleed valve when referencing fast discharge. I was speaking of the emergency pressure relief valve that will discharge should the pressure in the tank rise above it's set point.
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton

wa8yxm
Explorer III
Explorer III
westend wrote:
The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air to exit the tank slowly. The over-pressure relief valve opens instantaneously and it is not slow. When they open there is a release of liquid propane and is it not a small release.


One question westland.. You say "The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air..

HOW DID THE AIR GET IN THE TANK?

During the initial fill the tank is purged, all air is exhausted into a storage tank from which the propane that gets out with it is recovered later.. There is no air in the tank to displace it is all propane.

The valve you are speaking of is the liquid overfill indicator valve (long form) when it starts shooting WHITE, meaning frost by the way (condensed and frozen water vapor from the air around it on the OUTSIDE of the tank) the tank is full.

THIS is the proper way to fill a tank, not weight, not till the valve closes, but till the spitter spits.
Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
westend wrote:
RJsfishin wrote:
I don't understand the tanks blowing up. All the valves are designed to vent slowly. Tanks cannot blow up if the valves are operating properly.
The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air to exit the tank slowly. The over-pressure relief valve opens instantaneously and it is not slow. When they open there is a release of liquid propane and is it not a small release.

We had a bad event close to me a few years ago at the local farm co-op. A customer brought a 100 lb.. cylinder to be filled. Within moments of starting the fill, the tank exploded, killing the young guy filling the tank. The shrapnel from the explosion ruptured a nearby bulk tank and nearly burned the building to the ground. A couple of others were also injured.
The cause of the tank exploding was later found to be that the cylinder had acetylene in it at some point and the acetylene residue combined with the introduction of propane caused a reaction.


This unfortunate result is caused by the effects of 'partial pressures'. What this means is that when two (or more) dissimilar (incompatible) gasses are mixed into the same container, their individual component pressures (partial pressures) do not average out, but instead add together to become the overall total pressure (as do the partial component pressures of nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to total 14.7psi at sea level), thus creating the dangerous overpressure condition. In this case the safety relief valve will be inadequate at relieving this excess pressure.

3 tons

red31
Explorer
Explorer
The OPD was disabled by cylinder orientation!

eubank
Explorer
Explorer
Ohhh, it's a very bad idea simply to add ~7 temp-corrected gallons to a cylinder because it fails to take into account any residual propane in the cylinder. Ultimately, that's just the kind of unsafe practice that the OPD valves are supposed to prevent.

I'll go ahead and mention why OPDs themselves should not be used as a tool for professional fillers: OPDs are installed when the cylinder is manufactured/updated, but they are never checked again. By contrast, professional filling equipment (scales, etc.) is checked independently on a regular basis. You can see this by little stickers similar to the ones you see on gasoline pumps.

At best, then, OPDs are a last-stop attempt to stop the carnage that used to occur when people would home-fill cylinders right up to the top, almost guaranteeing the uncontrolled release of some rather explosive stuff.

๐Ÿ˜ž
Lynn



red31 wrote:
eubank wrote:

  • Filling by weight involves weighing on a scale.
  • Filling by volume involves use of the "spew" valve. (It never involves simply filling by gallon.)



The OP's cylinder was filled by neither even though the spew valve was used.

The metered 7.6 gal is temp corrected gals. ๐Ÿ˜‰ The OP got less.

red31
Explorer
Explorer
eubank wrote:

  • Filling by weight involves weighing on a scale.
  • Filling by volume involves use of the "spew" valve. (It never involves simply filling by gallon.)



The OP's cylinder was filled by neither even though the spew valve was used.

The metered 7.6 gal is temp corrected gals. ๐Ÿ˜‰ The OP got less.

westend
Explorer
Explorer
Chris Bryant wrote:
westend wrote:
The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air to exit the tank slowly.


Not exactly correct- there should be no air in the cylinder to be displaced- the cylinder should be urged, and contain no air at all.
Sorry, you're right, I should have said "gas".
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton

mpierce
Explorer
Explorer
Harvard wrote:
AO_hitech wrote:
It cannot be that dangerous to fill propane by something other than weight. You can't weigh the propane in a motorhome tank while filing it. ๐Ÿ˜‰


Our MH LPG tank has a manual screw type vent valve that, when in a vent (filling) position, will spew the liquid propane at 80% full. There is no such feature on any portable LPG bottles that I am aware.


Between grills and RV's, I have more than 10 bottles. All, except one, have a vent screw. I fill them at home, from my 1000 gallon home propane tank. I just open the vent valve, and when it spits out liquid, I shut it off. EXACTLY the way the old ones were designed to work.

Old-Biscuit
Explorer III
Explorer III
AO_hitech wrote:
Harvard wrote:
Our MH LPG tank has a manual screw type vent valve that, when in a vent (filling) position, will spew the liquid propane at 80% full. There is no such feature on any portable LPG bottles that I am aware.


The "spit" valve in a portable propane "tank" does the same thing. It vents liquid propane when the "tank" is full, just as the permanently mounted ones in a MH do. The exact method they use use is slightly different, but the result is the same.


Yep....bleeder valve
"....the attendant may open the bleeder valve, reset the meter and begin pumping propane into the bottle. The attendant will stop the pump once:

The bleeder valve starts to spew liquid
The scale indicates the cylinder has reached its legal filling capacity
The OPD valve stops the flow of propane into the cylinder (if equipped with an OPD valve)"
Is it time for your medication or mine?


2007 DODGE 3500 QC SRW 5.9L CTD In-Bed 'quiet gen'
2007 HitchHiker II 32.5 UKTG 2000W Xantex Inverter
US NAVY------USS Decatur DDG31

eubank
Explorer
Explorer
Standards for safe propane filling depend on the container being filled, of which there are two types common for RVs in the USA: DOT cylinders and ASME tanks for motorhomes. (Canada has its own standards.)
  • ASME tanks on motorhomes are horizontal and fixed-mount.
  • DOT cylinders are portable and typically (but not always) upright.

Standards for propane filling (and storage, handling, transportation, installation and use) are covered by NFPA 58:

NFPA 58: Liquefied Petroleum Gas Code

According to NFPA 58, DOT cylinders may be safely filled either by weight or by volume. By their very nature not lending themselves to filling by weight, ASME tanks are filled by volume. (Note that while NPFA 58 mandates OPD valves, it does not permit relying on them for fillers. Ask me why if you are interested in rationale.)
  • Filling by weight involves weighing on a scale.
  • Filling by volume involves use of the "spew" valve. (It never involves simply filling by gallon.)


The various states stick with some version of the NFPA standards, though very often with local modifications. For instance, because the NFPA addresses considerations of safety, but ignores environmental concerns, some states mandate various means of making sure that no propane is released into the air. Similarly, some states mandate filling only by weight, not by volume. All in all, you're looking at 50 different sets of rules for propane filling in the US, though, again, all relate in one way or another to the standards from the NFPA.

I should add that at least one state that I know of -- there may be more -- does not involve itself at all with propane safety standards, relying instead on private industry to specify standards of safety.

๐Ÿ™‚
Lynn

Chris_Bryant
Explorer II
Explorer II
westend wrote:
The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air to exit the tank slowly.


Not exactly correct- there should be no air in the cylinder to be displaced- the cylinder should be urged, and contain no air at all.
-- Chris Bryant

AO_hitech
Explorer
Explorer
Harvard wrote:
Our MH LPG tank has a manual screw type vent valve that, when in a vent (filling) position, will spew the liquid propane at 80% full. There is no such feature on any portable LPG bottles that I am aware.


The "spit" valve in a portable propane "tank" does the same thing. It vents liquid propane when the "tank" is full, just as the permanently mounted ones in a MH do. The exact method they use use is slightly different, but the result is the same.

Harvard
Explorer
Explorer
AO_hitech wrote:
It cannot be that dangerous to fill propane by something other than weight. You can't weigh the propane in a motorhome tank while filing it. ๐Ÿ˜‰


Our MH LPG tank has a manual screw type vent valve that, when in a vent (filling) position, will spew the liquid propane at 80% full. There is no such feature on any portable LPG bottles that I am aware.

westend
Explorer
Explorer
RJsfishin wrote:
I don't understand the tanks blowing up. All the valves are designed to vent slowly. Tanks cannot blow up if the valves are operating properly.
The fill valve is built to allow the displaced air to exit the tank slowly. The over-pressure relief valve opens instantaneously and it is not slow. When they open there is a release of liquid propane and is it not a small release.

We had a bad event close to me a few years ago at the local farm co-op. A customer brought a 100 lb.. cylinder to be filled. Within moments of starting the fill, the tank exploded, killing the young guy filling the tank. The shrapnel from the explosion ruptured a nearby bulk tank and nearly burned the building to the ground. A couple of others were also injured.
The cause of the tank exploding was later found to be that the cylinder had acetylene in it at some point and the acetylene residue combined with the introduction of propane caused a reaction.
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton