Annual freeze question - mcc272 please respond

[Stars101]

Saw a post re: Northern Lite's 10-2 water pump and winter camping question and it got me thinking-

Do you worry that any of the smaller water lines will freeze/break if it gets cold enough to partially freeze the water pump? (This is aimed at mc272mcc272 from the previous thread)

My DH and I are having our annual (and ongoing) "discussion" about when to winterize. His view is pink stuff in all lines by the first frost he sees on his windshield!

I take the view that as long as it gets well about freezing during the day that the lines/pump will be fine. It's been in the 70's here last week! But then we get a frost at night.

Lo and behold DH brings me our garden hose and it was slightly frozen... so that's his proof that TC will be in peril 🙂

I disagree because A) the garden hose was laying on ground in the shadow of the house THAT NEVER SEES DAYLIGHT - it would never warm up, and B) TC is in full sunlight and get warm inside so lines are still fine since it warms up again during the day....

My proof to refute his "frozen" garden hose is the bottle of iced tea in my car cupholder. It's cold, but no where near frozen yet so I declare MY reasoning to be superior...

I just cannot see the need to "winterize" when it's not even jacket weather during the day!

[Buzzcut1]

Stars101 wrote:

jaycocreek wrote:
I have water in the lines and they have not froze either..Having wintered many years in an RV in Idaho,I was just curious to when the water outside shows a sign of freezing compared to the lines inside.

I have never tried it and am to see at just what temperature water lines begin to freeze compared to outside water.

Yes, THAT was the question I was pondering. And I don't have any answer to it short of the "wait and see when a line bursts" method of discovery.

Thanks for all who have replied to this well hashed question (which is almost as annoying as the black tank dumping without a hose questions). I just like getting actual user's experience.

I will be taking my son snowboarding this year using the TC. But I wish I had Buzzcut to ride with me... as a 41 year old learning to snowboard I am pretty sure I may need his first aid skills before the season is over. All the other moms are sitting on the sidelines... I am the ONLY adult out there with a bunch of young kids - and they bounce so much better than I do 🙂

Please wish me luck that I don't post a topic called "Ouch - driving a TC home with a broken wrist"

get some wrist guards like the roller bladers wear if you are worried about it. make sure you wear a helmet and take some lessons to learn to snowboard the correct way.

[Stars101]

I have a Travel Leak, sorry Travel Lite. Entry level. Minimal insulation, but I will work on this. It will be a learning curve for sure. I am just planning on having a working furnace and porta potty this year.

But next year I hope to be able to use the water system to the shower only... no need for using the kitchen sink since it's within arms reach of the bathroom LOL. I can hold the bathroom faucet and kitchen faucet both, if I stretch a bit. That way I will only have one set of lines to deal with.

My biggest issue would be my small grey tank. It's 5-6 gallons directly under the shower pan. And I don't know what the plumbing looks like between the outside dump valve and the inside... so if a line split there I would be in deep doo doo.

All the other lines are visible and open to the interior. They run under the dinette edge, if you reached down you could feel them. And the hot water heater is in a cabinet that open to the inside of the TC.

It might prove an easy TC to make winter useable if I can stuff enough insulation in it.

I have a few wireless temperature probes that I will experiment with so I can see just how cold the water pump gets.

[mcc272]

I responded in more detail via e-mail. One variable that has not been addressed here is the variability in the nighttime temperature. If you are sure that it will be around 27* for example, the thermal mass so the camper may be fine although you might have outside shower issues. On the other hand, she is talking about upstate NY and the temps can be pretty variable by late Nov. You might think that you will have 27* and then after you leave unwinterized you might encounter 20*. It is all about the risk that you are comfortable with.

Also, the brand of camper and its construction makes a huge difference. Bigfoot is probably the best for dealing with cold without issues as it has heated tank compartments. Others without a true cold weather build will have less protection.

The other issue to consider is access to plumbing that is damaged. If you have any access a fix is easy. For most of us, access for repair and maintenance is not really designed into our rigs and that should make us more cautious.

[azrving]

mkirsch wrote:
Haven't seen the "dumping the black tank without a hose" discussion before... Now I'm curious to see what new levels of idiocy and ignorance can be attained from such a discussion...

It's not all that difficult. My favorite place is the grass areas at Walmart. Just get close enough to the curb so it goes out onto the lawn and not the cement. That wouldnt be polite. It'll green er right up. 🙂

[rutzbeck]

It's not hard to drive the truck and camper with a broken arm, just you better go slower. I did it last year.

I don't know if you can come up with a number that things will freeze inside as there are so many variables. I know I have gone down to 16 in my Bigfoot and the water was fine. I forgot to turn the heater on. I thought it was cold when I woke up. I live in Alaska and have never winterized the fresh water tank. I do winterized the rest but I always figured it was a big tank and a few cups of water left in it would expand but there was plenty of area to expand to. My real problem area is my fill line. It is already difficult to fill in normal circumstances and if it is cold it won't fill. I have used my water system down to 10 degrees after that I winterize and remove the doors from my cabinets.

[mkirsch]

Haven't seen the "dumping the black tank without a hose" discussion before... Now I'm curious to see what new levels of idiocy and ignorance can be attained from such a discussion...

[HMS_Beagle]

I learned to snowboard at about age 50. It is a steep learning curve. I do suggest buying some wrist guards, or gloves with them built in. I never broke anything but was happy on occasion that I was wearing the wrist guards.

[WVbassmistress]

Good luck, Stars!!!!! If anyone can do it...it will be you!! You're one hell of a woman!

[Stars101]

jaycocreek wrote:
I have water in the lines and they have not froze either..Having wintered many years in an RV in Idaho,I was just curious to when the water outside shows a sign of freezing compared to the lines inside.

I have never tried it and am to see at just what temperature water lines begin to freeze compared to outside water.

Yes, THAT was the question I was pondering. And I don't have any answer to it short of the "wait and see when a line bursts" method of discovery.

Thanks for all who have replied to this well hashed question (which is almost as annoying as the black tank dumping without a hose questions). I just like getting actual user's experience.

I will be taking my son snowboarding this year using the TC. But I wish I had Buzzcut to ride with me... as a 41 year old learning to snowboard I am pretty sure I may need his first aid skills before the season is over. All the other moms are sitting on the sidelines... I am the ONLY adult out there with a bunch of young kids - and they bounce so much better than I do 🙂

Please wish me luck that I don't post a topic called "Ouch - driving a TC home with a broken wrist"

[kohldad]

Put a remote thermometer in the belly so you can watch the temps. You will find you are good down to about 28* if the wind isn't blowing. Below that, the belly will get to freezing temps over night.

However, you don't need to winterize. Just put an electric heater in so you can keep the temp inside about 50*. Won't need to run much, but will provide enough radiant heat to the basement to protect your lines. If it gets real cold or strong winds, you may need to let furnace a little to put heat in the basement.

If you can keep it on the truck, the truck bed keeps the wind off and adds a bit of insulation which helps a lot.

That far north, you may not gain all winter, but sure will gain a few months of non-winterized use.

Down here in SC, I only rely on the furnace since mine is in a storage yard. Only when it gets down in the low teens do I throw it on the truck for the couple days we have temps like that. Down to 20*, the battery is good for about 5 days before I use to bring it home for a recharge. But with a new 100W solar install, I hope the battery will be good all winter. Also only use about on 20# tank. Six winters and I've never winterized nor had issues, despite seeing multiple days with highs about 30* and lows in the teens.

[jimh406]

mkirsch wrote:
It's when you start getting multiple nights of freezing temperatures in a row, and cloudy days where it doesn't warm up, that you really need to get busy winterizing.

I agree, but the problem comes about when you are really busy and the freezing moves into the area at the same time! 🙂

[mkirsch]

Most everyone here is ignoring the thermal mass of the CAMPER.

It takes more than one night below 32 to get the inside of the camper down to where water lines are in danger of freezing. Heck even in my completely uninsulated unit, the interior temperature was still in the mid 50's after a night in the mid 30's with no heat.

One night of barely-freezing temperatures is not going to burst all your lines and destroy your camper. It's when you start getting multiple nights of freezing temperatures in a row, and cloudy days where it doesn't warm up, that you really need to get busy winterizing.

[jimh406]

If you aren't using it, not winterizing is just being lazy. Not that I'm against being lazy, but it might end up costing you a lot of effort. 🙂

I don't find winterizing a chore other than draining the freshwater tank which takes a while.

[jaycocreek]

I have water in the lines and they have not froze either..Having wintered many years in an RV in Idaho,I was just curious to when the water outside shows a sign of freezing compared to the lines inside.

I have never tried it and am to see at just what temperature water lines begin to freeze compared to outside water.