Diesel fuel penalty

[Redsky]

I knew when I bought my diesel truck that the cost for the truck was going to be $9,000 more and that I would be paying twice as much for maintenance and repairs, but I did not expect to be paying more for diesel than for premium gas.

I have been checking prices and locations for a trip planned through California, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Nevada this year. I was surprised in checking Pilot truck stop prices how much more they are charging for diesel over premium gas.

In California the difference is on average 8 cents.
In Oregon the difference on average is 22 cents.
In Idaho the difference on average is 55 cents.
In Montana the difference on average is 60 cents.
In Nevada the difference on average is 25 cents.

That difference in cost is twice as great when comparing diesel to the regular gas that a truck would be using. In Montana diesel is 90 cents more per gallon than diesel or 29% more expensive. That pretty much wipes out any gain in fuel economy from having a diesel engine.

[Terryallan]

rhagfo wrote:

ejfranz wrote:

Terryallan wrote:


Don't know about the MPG, But on the down hill. Gas has got diesels beat. They already hold back the truck and trailer. All you got to do. Is drop down thru the gear box.
Diesels have to add some sort of brake (trany, Exhaust, engine) to make a diesel do what a gas engine does naturally. With out some sort of add on. A diesel just free wheels down a hill, in ANY gear. I understand many manufacturers are putting them in their truck either as a option, or in some cases standard equipment. It should be required.

I can come down from Blowing Rock, 7 miles of 6 to 7% grade, with sharp curves and hardly touch the brakes.

???????

In a gas truck you gear down and hope you don't blow the motor by over revving it coming down or up a step grade. Have you ever driven a diesel? Exhaust breaks are added to diesel to pull loads you can only dream of pulling with a gasser.

The trailer he is holding back only MAX 7,000# more likely south of 6,000#. My Cummins did fine without an EB with our 1st 5er at 8,000# and 7,500# of truck.
Yep an EB is an add on, but having a turbo mounted on on an engine with 17 to 1 compression is a lot of Whoa!

Terryallan, your whole rig likely weighs about as much as just my 11,000# 5er.

Our truck had a turbo, Ain't that what the big whistle is coming from under the hood???. No engine braking at all. Just free wheeling. First time down the mountain. I stopped at the truck brake check at the top. Then started down. Speed limit 35. It was picking up speed so fast I couldn't keep up with changing the gears. Saw 3000 on the tach. Truck hit the governors at 2800. Driver teacher said. You better do as I say, or you ain't gonna make the runoff ramp. So I laid on the brakes, and got it slowed down, and listened real close to what he said the rest of the way down. Have never forgot what I learned that day. And have never smoked any brakes. But until that day. I never knew that diesels had no compression on the back side. Plenty on the front. Big hole on the back. So you can imagine my surprise when I dropped the clutch in 3rd gear, and nothing happened. I remember it like it was yesterday. But it was really nearly 30 years ago. After that, We ran all over the US from coast to coast, over the Rockies, and the Blue Ridge with no Jake. We made it cause he knew how, and taught me.

Y'all can do what you want. But when I next drive a diesel. It's gonna have some sort of engine braking added to it.

BTW. While the Rockies are higher. They are no tougher than the Blue Ridge. Seems they are less twisty. On the big roads anyway.

And truly weight is relative. You can smoke the brakes with an empty truck as fast as you can with a loaded truck. Shoot, You can smoke the brakes on a car if you try to come down in Overdrive. Seen it.

[rhagfo]

monkey44 wrote:

GoPackGo wrote:
But you should recoup a lot of that on the back end when you sell or trade.

I find that hard to believe - if you buy a diesel today, at say anywhere from $7k - $9K over a gas version, and you get down around 250K-300K miles or so, you have an older worn out body and seats, and heater, and A/C, and wires, and alternators, and undercarriage, and etc etc... So, what makes anyone imagine a truck of that age will bring $7k or $9k more than a gasser,

You have a diesel engine that runs like new still in an old worn out truck even if you take care of it. The reason one buys a diesel is pulling power ... it never will have anything to do with resale value or operating expenses. Or, recovering that expense when you sell it. Can't...makes no sense.

Not sure about that, current asking price for 2nd gen Rams 98.5 to 2002 5.9 in good shapes is $12,000 to $20,000, no you don't get it all back, but a very high percentage comes back in resale, just like 4X4.

It seems that most feel that early Ram are the worst frame and body on the road, well at 270,000 miles this body and frame are doing just fine. I am getting the drivers seat rebuilt this week, as it is a little soft on the out side and the edge seam is starting to let go.

I got a diesel for pulling power, and fuel economy, the two Ford 460's never did better than 10 mpg, and closer to 8 in town. My Cummins pulls way better, and I get 100% better mileage. Yes going from 7 mpg to 14 mpg is a 100% improvement in mileage.
the other thing is a diesel isn't a gasser, they need to be driven differently. Many that come to diesel from gas mash the throttle and complain about poor acceleration. I have always rolled into the throttle, yep still a little turbo lag, then the boost kicks in and it takes off!!

[Terryallan]

45Ricochet wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

Don't know about the MPG, But on the down hill. Gas has got diesels beat. They already hold back the truck and trailer. All you got to do. Is drop down thru the gear box.
Diesels have to add some sort of brake (trany, Exhaust, engine) to make a diesel do what a gas engine does naturally. With out some sort of add on. A diesel just free wheels down a hill, in ANY gear. I understand many manufacturers are putting them in their truck either as a option, or in some cases standard equipment. It should be required.

I can come down from Blowing Rock, 7 miles of 6 to 7% grade, with sharp curves and hardly touch the brakes.

LOL
Try that with 15k lbs on your tail Terry and get back to us with your results :E Think brake fade here. "hardly" means your service brakes are warm to put it mildly. Most likely hot and in a failing state, err not exactly what the manufacture engineered it for.
Your call, but the gasser back pressure is very limited with a big RV.
BTDT :E

No hardly does not mean my brakes were warm. It means I barely touched them. Maybe you can't. Maybe you didn't drop down far enough. But when I drop down to 1st at the top of the hill. It holds it back just great. I actually had to shift up, and give it a little gas to keep it from stopping. I've been coming down those mountains in 1st, and 2nd gear for 40 years. Never got the brakes hot while towing.
On the other hand. Starting down in the 3RD gear of 13. The big truck just ran past the redline like it was in netural. No back pressure at all, no braking at all. Only my foot, and one of the best drivers in the world beside me teaching me what to do. I lerned pretty quick. Or we would have been in the runoff ramp.

Diesels are great for towing. But have no back pressure for braking, unless it is added. And gas does it naturally.

[Terryallan]

ejfranz wrote:

Terryallan wrote:


Don't know about the MPG, But on the down hill. Gas has got diesels beat. They already hold back the truck and trailer. All you got to do. Is drop down thru the gear box.
Diesels have to add some sort of brake (trany, Exhaust, engine) to make a diesel do what a gas engine does naturally. With out some sort of add on. A diesel just free wheels down a hill, in ANY gear. I understand many manufacturers are putting them in their truck either as a option, or in some cases standard equipment. It should be required.

I can come down from Blowing Rock, 7 miles of 6 to 7% grade, with sharp curves and hardly touch the brakes.

???????

In a gas truck you gear down and hope you don't blow the motor by over revving it coming down or up a step grade. Have you ever driven a diesel? Exhaust breaks are added to diesel to pull loads you can only dream of pulling with a gasser.

You know. I really have driven a diesel. A CLT9000, double wide, air ride, with a Fuller roadranger 13 double over. No Jake. Hauling 80,000lbs, More at times. Have you???? Becaue Exhaust BRAKES are added to diesels NOT to tow heavy, but to slow them down coming down the mountain. They don't need Jakes to pull..

BTW Breaks are what you do when you stop working. BRAKES are what you use to stop a vehicle. And diesels FREE WHEEL down the mountain without a add on engine brake.

[rhagfo]

ejfranz wrote:

Terryallan wrote:


Don't know about the MPG, But on the down hill. Gas has got diesels beat. They already hold back the truck and trailer. All you got to do. Is drop down thru the gear box.
Diesels have to add some sort of brake (trany, Exhaust, engine) to make a diesel do what a gas engine does naturally. With out some sort of add on. A diesel just free wheels down a hill, in ANY gear. I understand many manufacturers are putting them in their truck either as a option, or in some cases standard equipment. It should be required.

I can come down from Blowing Rock, 7 miles of 6 to 7% grade, with sharp curves and hardly touch the brakes.

???????

In a gas truck you gear down and hope you don't blow the motor by over revving it coming down or up a step grade. Have you ever driven a diesel? Exhaust breaks are added to diesel to pull loads you can only dream of pulling with a gasser.

The trailer he is holding back only MAX 7,000# more likely south of 6,000#. My Cummins did fine without an EB with our 1st 5er at 8,000# and 7,500# of truck.
Yep an EB is an add on, but having a turbo mounted on on an engine with 17 to 1 compression is a lot of Whoa!

Terryallan, your whole rig likely weighs about as much as just my 11,000# 5er.

[45Ricochet]

Terryallan wrote:

Don't know about the MPG, But on the down hill. Gas has got diesels beat. They already hold back the truck and trailer. All you got to do. Is drop down thru the gear box.
Diesels have to add some sort of brake (trany, Exhaust, engine) to make a diesel do what a gas engine does naturally. With out some sort of add on. A diesel just free wheels down a hill, in ANY gear. I understand many manufacturers are putting them in their truck either as a option, or in some cases standard equipment. It should be required.

I can come down from Blowing Rock, 7 miles of 6 to 7% grade, with sharp curves and hardly touch the brakes.

LOL
Try that with 15k lbs on your tail Terry and get back to us with your results :E Think brake fade here. "hardly" means your service brakes are warm to put it mildly. Most likely hot and in a failing state, err not exactly what the manufacture engineered it for.
Your call, but the gasser back pressure is very limited with a big RV.
BTDT :E

[GoPackGo]

Monkey44 wrote - "I find that hard to believe - if you buy a diesel today, at say anywhere from $7k - $9K over a gas version, and you get down around 250K-300K miles or so, you have an older worn out body and seats, and heater, and A/C, and wires, and alternators, and undercarriage, and etc etc... So, what makes anyone imagine a truck of that age will bring $7k or $9k more than a gasser, "

I did not say you would get back 100% of the additional premium that a diesel will cost. I said 'a lot' - and I stand by that statement. Compared to a gas engined truck with 250-300k miles on it (maybe already rebuilt at least once ?), the same truck with a diesel engine will be worth much more.

[ejfranz]

Terryallan wrote:


Don't know about the MPG, But on the down hill. Gas has got diesels beat. They already hold back the truck and trailer. All you got to do. Is drop down thru the gear box.
Diesels have to add some sort of brake (trany, Exhaust, engine) to make a diesel do what a gas engine does naturally. With out some sort of add on. A diesel just free wheels down a hill, in ANY gear. I understand many manufacturers are putting them in their truck either as a option, or in some cases standard equipment. It should be required.

I can come down from Blowing Rock, 7 miles of 6 to 7% grade, with sharp curves and hardly touch the brakes.

???????

In a gas truck you gear down and hope you don't blow the motor by over revving it coming down or up a step grade. Have you ever driven a diesel? Exhaust breaks are added to diesel to pull loads you can only dream of pulling with a gasser.

[Supercharged]

katmann343 wrote:
When I was a kid,working on the farm, diesel cost 0.09 cents a gallon.:( (I am OLD)

My dad said when he was a boy in the teens 100 years ago diesel was .02 cents a gallon.

[Supercharged]

Redsky wrote:
I knew when I bought my diesel truck that the cost for the truck was going to be $9,000 more and that I would be paying twice as much for maintenance and repairs, but I did not expect to be paying more for diesel than for premium gas.

I have been checking prices and locations for a trip planned through California, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Nevada this year. I was surprised in checking Pilot truck stop prices how much more they are charging for diesel over premium gas.

In California the difference is on average 8 cents.
In Oregon the difference on average is 22 cents.
In Idaho the difference on average is 55 cents.
In Montana the difference on average is 60 cents.
In Nevada the difference on average is 25 cents.

That difference in cost is twice as great when comparing diesel to the regular gas that a truck would be using. In Montana diesel is 90 cents more per gallon than diesel or 29% more expensive. That pretty much wipes out any gain in fuel economy from having a diesel engine.

I would agree on the cost, plus if you had gas, you wouldn't smell so bad, shake, spend all the ex. on parts, plus no more tracking oil all over the carpet. And last but not least smoke.

[katmann343]

When I was a kid,working on the farm, diesel cost 0.09 cents a gallon.:( (I am OLD)

[naturist]

krobbe wrote:
Buy a diesel for tow power. Not to save money.

Yup.

My diesel Jeep does get about 30% farther on a gallon than the gas engine version. It also puts out about 1/3 more torque (335 ft-lbs vs 210 ft-lbs). During the summer when gas prices go up and diesel prices level off or go down (although that not so much lately), it is cheaper to drive than the gas version. But it is the 1/3 more torque that makes it a good tow vehicle.

Of course, a truck maker could (and it appears they ARE these days) use up that improved mileage by stuffing in an even stronger puller.

[fla-gypsy]

There is no way it will ever be cost neutral. The initial cost, higher fuel and maintenance costs will never allow you to recover the COI. Unless you need a diesel truck it is not a good value regardless of the juvenile descriptors provided. The cost penalty will continue to grow in the future due to emission requirements of diesel engines and better efficiency of large gasoline engines. Now a midsized diesel engine might get closer but the truck makers seem to be caught up in this mindless power war that went beyond crazy many years ago.

[Hybridhunter]

Good correction posted above!
Diesel has been consistently 25% more expensive than regular fuel up here in Manitoba for half a year now. And they stink in this cold weather.

[Terryallan]

Me Again wrote:

2oldman wrote:

Redsky wrote:
. That pretty much wipes out any gain in fuel economy from having a diesel engine.

I think you may have fallen victim to a couple diesel myths, one, that you get better mileage with it, and, that it costs less.

Just a cursory observation.

.

Oh, and I want one that will come down 6% grades at a reasonable speed with the trailer without using the service brakes.

Chris

Don't know about the MPG, But on the down hill. Gas has got diesels beat. They already hold back the truck and trailer. All you got to do. Is drop down thru the gear box.
Diesels have to add some sort of brake (trany, Exhaust, engine) to make a diesel do what a gas engine does naturally. With out some sort of add on. A diesel just free wheels down a hill, in ANY gear. I understand many manufacturers are putting them in their truck either as a option, or in some cases standard equipment. It should be required.

I can come down from Blowing Rock, 7 miles of 6 to 7% grade, with sharp curves and hardly touch the brakes.