Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Sport45]

What is your total gasoline cost per year? A diesel will save about 10% of that (more towing, less empty, but probably about 10% overall*). If this is enough savings per year to offset the extra upfront and maintenance cost of the diesel, then go for it. If you want more low-end grunt, get the diesel. If you like the gas engine stick with it. Either will haul a 7000 pound trailer.

*The diesel will save more than 10% of the gallons of fuel, but with diesel currently costing more than unleaded the fuel cost savings is probably closer to 10% for the occasional hauler. YMMV

[mageep]

OK... New to the forum, and this thread strikes right at the heart of my sole interest here...

I am a recreation racer of cars, so I am hauling a 24' enclosed... Fully loaded with car, etc., I am hauling approx. 7000 pounds.

At the moment, I am hauling it with a 120,000 mile 99 4WD GMC quad-cab dually with the SHORT BED (rare set-up??). It has the 454 Vortec and 4spd auto. Really the things tows like a champ. My only complaints are two-fold:

- The mileage is 8.0 when hauling (although I like to do 75mph when towing), and around 12 empty...
- the tank is 22 gallons (!!!), so doing the math, you can see that I need to stop every 150 miles or so when towing!

I have had this truck for this season, and it has treated me very well, barring the two issues I mentioned. Just prior to this, I had a 97 Chevy quad cab LWB / SRW 6.5TD... THAT truck was a waste, in that every time it broke, it costs $$ to fix, and I hated that as someone who tweaks his own cars being too stupid to repair it (Diesel's like a foreign language to me)... I can do gas engine work myself.. .as long as it's worth my time to do so!

Sooo I am throwing this out there... Thoughts on keeping what I have versus upgrading? The gas is $$$, soo...

I only log about 6-7 long trips a year of about 800 miles each, and I insist on being a cheap bastard, because truck $$ takes away from race car money, and that just can't happen! 🙂

Thoughts??? If diesel, which one is most reliable / affordable used for sub $20K?

[TxCoastCamper]

tomdrobin wrote:
Those new diesel pickups are awsome IMO. I just priced out a plain jane extended cab model with minimal options. Just the towing stuff, turbo diesel engine & allsion trans. MSRP came out to $37,000. Too much for me. My 06 5.3 work truck with all the tow goodies was around $20,000 and does a good job towing my TT. I would like to have the diesel, but just can't bare to part with that much $$$$.

Look at used. I found a fine and well loaded 2006 2500HD CC D/A at $27,500. Looked like all highway miles.

[tomdrobin]

Those new diesel pickups are awsome IMO. I just priced out a plain jane extended cab model with minimal options. Just the towing stuff, turbo diesel engine & allsion trans. MSRP came out to $37,000. Too much for me. My 06 5.3 work truck with all the tow goodies was around $20,000 and does a good job towing my TT. I would like to have the diesel, but just can't bare to part with that much $$$$.

[BertP]

JIMNLIN wrote:
now that was funny. My neighbor lady has two 3500 DRW Dodge flatbeds she longhauls/hotshots with. At 5' 8" tall/green eyed blonde and around 130 lbs she certainly doesn't have any testerone dripping problems and will pass you going up a hill pulling in excess of 26000 lbs.

Well, Jim, two Dodge 3500's coupled together should give her about 650 HP. That ought to be enough to get 26,000 lb up most hills I have come across quite smartly. :W

Bert

[Sport45]

You drive what you want and so do I.

Right on!

[JIMNLIN]

Sport45 wrote:
[snip]
Priceless? I though you shelled out good money for that beefy, testosterone-dripping, manly engine.
[snip]

😉

now that was funny. My neighbor lady has two 3500 DRW Dodge flatbeds she longhauls/hotshots with. At 5' 8" tall/green eyed blonde and around 130 lbs she certainly doesn't have any testerone dripping problems and will pass you going up a hill pulling in excess of 26000 lbs. The last time I refuel at the truck stop a Texas gal was behind the wheel of her F350 DRW PSD with a large longhaul load didn't have any testerone probs either. Very easy to look at even with my old eyes. I use a diesel for same reasons other commercial long haulers/hotshoters do. I had a 600+ mile a week commute so the payback for '03 Cummins option came at around 45000 miles which was the first 20 months I had the truck. Another great plus is less reguler maintenance costs vs a big block v-10/v8 gas engine over the first 100k.
I doubt other diesel owners payback will be as quick as mine was as we all have a different miles driven per day/all diesel trucks do not get the same mpgs/some diesel owners may not have payed invoice pricing for their trucks/many other factors that will make them different.
You drive what you want and so do I.
JIM

[TxCoastCamper]

Mark Guebert wrote:
I believe the advantage for diesels has disappeared. It used to be that the diesel would get much better (%20 to %30) mileage. With the new generation of emissions laden motors mileage has decreased considerably.

My 08 Superduty 6.4L PSD sucks mileage wise. 15 unloaded straight hwy, 8.5 towing my 6K TT. For comparison my father is towing with a Chevy 1500HD 6.0L gasser and he gets the same kind of mileage towing 8K 5ver, and he didn't have to pay an extra 6K to get a diesel.

Having just switched to a 2006 2500HD D/A from a '98 K1500 5.7l gasser, I expected to see some improvement in fuel mileage.

But, i have become a much more heavy-footed driver with all that diesel power at my beck and call!!

So, while on a recent camping trip we enjoyed 15+ mpg (DIC reported) pulling our 6000# low profile 5er down here in flat Houston - I get the only the same 15+ mpg zooming around the city with my heavy foot!!

Oh well. 🙂

[Mark_Guebert]

I believe the advantage for diesels has disappeared. It used to be that the diesel would get much better (%20 to %30) mileage. With the new generation of emissions laden motors mileage has decreased considerably.

My 08 Superduty 6.4L PSD sucks mileage wise. 15 unloaded straight hwy, 8.5 towing my 6K TT. For comparison my father is towing with a Chevy 1500HD 6.0L gasser and he gets the same kind of mileage towing 8K 5ver, and he didn't have to pay an extra 6K to get a diesel.

[Sport45]

Had to search a bit to find it, but I remembered PM did a comparison of alternate fuels a while back. WVO is mentioned on the lsat page of the report. WVO and Biodiesel are good alternatives to diesel, but there's just not enough french fry grease to go around if it really catches on. Ethanol is the same way, if you grew enough corn or sugar beets to fuel the nation, there wouldn't be enough farmland left to feed us.

Popular Mechanics Alternate Fuel Report

[Sport45]

I think you're right about the moonshine. It's legal to make for your own consumption, whether you drink it or use as a motor fuel. No different than making beer or wine at home. The revenue'rs get on you if you try to sell it without the proper license or paying the tax. Producers get around those issues by selling "denatured" alcohol. That's just ethanol (corn sqeezin's) with enough methanol mixed in to make it poisonous.

Ethanol is the stuff that makes a decent spark-ignition motor fuel, but you have to use a lot of it. Methanol would also make a decent fuel, but there wouldn't be any cost savings, and since it's primarily made from natural gas it's not really a renewable energy source. Methanol, when combined with caustic soda makes methoxy-alcohol. It's the ingredient that breaks down the triglyceride's in the WVO to start the biodiesel process. It's probably safer to buy the caustic and methanol pre-mixed. Most folks are allergic to caustic. It irritates and turns the skin red, makes your eyes water, and can make you seek medical attention. Before the days of gasohol, I'd put a coke bottle full of methanol in my gas tank a couple time a year to absorb any condensation and burn it through. (I may have only suceeded in putting a layer of methanol in my tank)

Happy travels.

[BertP]

Steak2k1 wrote:
And BTW Bert it's not usually ethanol (grain alcohol), it's methanol that is commonly used.

You're right. I couldn't remember which one it was and did a quick search on ethanol and biodiesel and got quite a few hits. In retrospect, I should have known that it wasn't ethanol because ethanol is not particularly dangerous to handle. Methanol is.

Steak2k1 wrote:
The other 2 ingredients are either NaOH or KOH (Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide). And yes it is a potentially dangerous operation. I would not argue that. But the reality is that by using common sense and a safety first attitude, it's no more dangerous than getting out of bed in the AM or driving to work.

True, but after I started looking at making my own biodiesel, I had to ask myself "What will you do with that biodiesel? Will you run it in your truck?" and my answer was "No.". The DMax in my truck is a $20K engine. If anything were to go awry either because the engine or any part connected to the engine cannot tolerate biodiesel or because I screwed up, that engine would be in a very expensive world of hurt. Currently, GM certifies the DMax to run on B5. I don't know why they will only allow 5% biodiesel, but there must be something that the engine won't tolerate in biodiesel. I have an old Mercedes with a 3l turbo diesel and I wouldn't hesitate to run biodiesel in it. But, not in my truck.

Steak2k1 wrote:
I imagine the same could be said about moonshine...not something I would want to try. Besides there's no bush around here to hide it.! seems if memory serves me correct that it's still an illegal operation to make moonshine..no.?

I could be wrong, but I think it is illegal to produce moonshine for human consumption (which actually is the definition of moonshine :E). But, I don't think it is illegal to produce the stuff if it is to be used as a fuel. Inventory shrinkage may be an issue, though......

Steak2k1 wrote:
The gains of BioD are well worth it IMO. Running BioD is better for the environment, uses recycled waste veg oil and cuts my fuel bill in a big way. Making your own is sweet.!

Again, true, but the other issue I had with biodiesel is that when we go camping, we usually travel a fair distance. My truck holds enough fuel to go approximately 1000 miles and still have a comfortable reserve. If our trip is beyond that distance, I am back to buying diesel fuel again. Not to mention that WVO (not sure about biodiesel) has issues with metal tanks. My main tank is plastic, but my aux tank is aluminized steel.

Bert

[Sport45]

No jealosy here. I really don't care what anyone else buys or their reason for buying it. Diesel may be the best choice for you. For many of the folks still trying to decide it may not be. If someone wants a pickup to look sharp driving back and forth to work and might on occasion rent a U-haul trailer a half-ton should be fine. But there are some on this forum who would lead that same driver to a 3/4 ton 4x4 diesel and all that would do is cost him money. Be honest now, do you think most diesel pickups are purchased by folks who need them? Or are most purchased so the owner can say they have one? Not talking about you, just want your opinion. (I consider "most" to mean more than half.)

Natural gas is an easy conversion for gasoline engines. I haven't checked into it in a while, but you used to be able to get a Fuelmaker compressor which would install at your house to refuel your vehicle overnight. There are several CNG stations in the Houston area. Hydrogen is still commercial only. The Orlando airport has a few H2 powered (Ford turbo-V10's) shuttle busses. H2 is in it's infancy as motor fuels go. There's not a lot of demand for stations because there aren't many vehicles. There aren't many vehicles because there's not many stations... It is doable though. Propane, I believe, is better than natural gas or H2 because it's stored as a liquid giving better energy density in storage. I've seen several propane powered garbage trucks running around the Ontario, CA area as well as other places. Propane works fine for a truck engine where they are driving a fixed route and the fuel can be bought in bulk. By comparison, there's probably not a lot of difference in availability of alternate fuels for gasoline or diesel engines.

we're just talking preference of diesel over gas, and hopefully in a civil manner...right.?

That's fine by me. I don't have a preference of gasoline or diesel. Every case has to be decided on it's own. I thought this was a comparison thread and we were talking about reasons, not preferences.

Oh, I tow (when I tow) with a '00 F250. Works for me...

Have fun on the road and more fun at the stops.

Later,

[Steakman]

I thought you shelled out good money for that beefy, testosterone-dripping, manly engine.

Seems I detect a touch of estrogen inspired jealousy maybe?
Which begs the question: and you tow with what.? a smart car.

stk

[Steakman]

God I love this fourm..LOL. The big 3 in Detroit may say they build their gas drive vehicles to last 200k...rarely do you see that where I live. That's not saying that all the diesels do either, but I would warrant they tend to last longer simply due to the lubricating properties of the fuel - and yea I know that now with ULSD (<15ppm sulpher),that particular advantage is somewhat gone. However with the use of a min. 2% Biod blend, that issue is totally negated. Using a blend of 2% or better should in-fact allow much longer engine life.

for those interested in seeing some interesting, objective data on that: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728

Maintenance is also part of the mix. I'm kinda religious about that.

As for BioD..at least it is possible for one with a bit of know how & mechanical aptitude to actually make it and use it. No engine mods required. @ .919 per Litre here in Canada (X 3.68 litres per gallon)...certainly worth investigating..

And BTW Bert it's not usually ethanol (grain alcohol), it's methanol that is commonly used. The other 2 ingredients are either NaOH or KOH (Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide). And yes it is a potentially dangerous operation. I would not argue that. But the reality is that by using common sense and a safety first attitude, it's no more dangerous than getting out of bed in the AM or driving to work. I imagine the same could be said about moonshine...not something I would want to try. Besides there's no bush around here to hide it.! seems if memory serves me correct that it's still an illegal operation to make moonshine..no.?

The gains of BioD are well worth it IMO. Running BioD is better for the environment, uses recycled waste veg oil and cuts my fuel bill in a big way. Making your own is sweet.!

whatever...I'll always be a diesel guy whether it's in a Duramx or a Jetta TDI for that sinmple set of reasons. At least for the time being one can have a handle on his fuel costs.

As for Mr sport..

Gasoline engines also easily adapt to natural gas, butane, propane, or hydrogen

..and just how many of these stations that offer these products are out there (propane I'll buy), but LNG/Butane/H2..? give me a break.! I live in a province that has the 2nd largest reserves of oil on the planet, along with very sizeable deposits of NGas..and we don't have LNG/butane/H2 stations, oh OK...1 LNG station in all of Calgary..not sure how many in Edm..whatever..not exactly a real comparison to Gas stations or a choice for that matter now is it.?

Okay, you win. The rest of us are just plain stupid. I'll go grab my pointy hat and sit in the corner now

well if you have the hat and feel you must..be my guest.! But understand "sport", I have not called you or anyone else stupid or got personal in any way shape or form. So kindly keep your condescending sacarsm to yourself capiche.?

we're just talking preference of diesel over gas, and hopefully in a civil manner...right.?

rgds,

stk