F650 as 5th wheel tow vehicle.

[lightning_drive]

I'm currently towing my KZ Montego Bay Sportster with a 14K dry weight and close to 20K fully loaded with a 1999 F550 7.3 with 4.88 rear end. I'll start by saying I love this truck. In most all situations it is a great tow vehicle. Where it begins working hard is when it is climbing 6 to 7% grades. I try to keep EGT under 1300 degrees. This equals speeds of 35MPH with RPMs of 2200 to 2500.

So I am considering going to a used Supercrewzer or western hauler type tow vehicle. These are available with Cat 300 to 330 HP diesels and 6 speed Allison transmissions. My question is to owners of this type vehicle.
Is there an advantage in going to the F650? Would be interested in your real world results. Performance as in MPG, Climbing ability, comfort level.
Keeping in mind this will not be a daily driver but used mostly as a tow vehicle.
Thanks in advance for your input.
Mike

[shartflhs]

ORbiker is correct, I put a 6.0 trans cooler in, I also had an aftermarket cooler with electric fan prior. The aftermarket cooler was not enough. With both coolers installed I have never seen temperatures above 185 degrees, previously I had seen up to 220 degrees. I also did some mods to the trans while I did my engine mods, I installed a billet torque converter, and a transgo towing shift kit. Don't know if that helped with the temperature but it sure improved the shifting and off the line torque, much easier to get it going from a start.

[Wild_Card]

ORbiker wrote:

shartflhs wrote:
Lightning Driver, I would keep the 7.3 and do some power mods. I have a 99 7.3 and am towing a 40ft 14k trailer and do it with ease. I used a HFSB turbo kit from DP Tuner along with injectors, upgraded high pressure oil pump and a tuner with multiple settings. I also added a 4" turbo back exhaust, and improved the fuel system with new high pressure injector lines, air intake and other minor parts. It changes the truck dramatically, I can pull just about any grade at 60mph and exhaust temps under 1200 easily passing just about anyone I want anytime I want. I spent probably a total of 5k on the mods and it is extremely reliable. Towing I use 3 different tunes 20/40/60 hp depending on terrain and weight I am hauling to help keep exhaust temps down. Non towing I mostly use a modified stock tune and it drives like a gas powered truck I have to watch my lead foot as i find myself chirping the tires in 2nd and 3rd gear. I looked into all three major brands of new trucks and was thoroughly disappointed with the power and torque when I drove them. I am so happy I did not buy a new truck. Oh and I am towing with at 3.73 rear gear.

Steve

Steve
What did you do the keep the transmission temp down?

I have a 2002 7.3.

Install a transcooler out of a 6.0 Ford. I dont know if tjats what he did, but that is pretty much the standard.

[ORbiker]

shartflhs wrote:
Lightning Driver, I would keep the 7.3 and do some power mods. I have a 99 7.3 and am towing a 40ft 14k trailer and do it with ease. I used a HFSB turbo kit from DP Tuner along with injectors, upgraded high pressure oil pump and a tuner with multiple settings. I also added a 4" turbo back exhaust, and improved the fuel system with new high pressure injector lines, air intake and other minor parts. It changes the truck dramatically, I can pull just about any grade at 60mph and exhaust temps under 1200 easily passing just about anyone I want anytime I want. I spent probably a total of 5k on the mods and it is extremely reliable. Towing I use 3 different tunes 20/40/60 hp depending on terrain and weight I am hauling to help keep exhaust temps down. Non towing I mostly use a modified stock tune and it drives like a gas powered truck I have to watch my lead foot as i find myself chirping the tires in 2nd and 3rd gear. I looked into all three major brands of new trucks and was thoroughly disappointed with the power and torque when I drove them. I am so happy I did not buy a new truck. Oh and I am towing with at 3.73 rear gear.

Steve

Steve
What did you do the keep the transmission temp down?

I have a 2002 7.3.

[shartflhs]

Lightning Driver, I would keep the 7.3 and do some power mods. I have a 99 7.3 and am towing a 40ft 14k trailer and do it with ease. I used a HFSB turbo kit from DP Tuner along with injectors, upgraded high pressure oil pump and a tuner with multiple settings. I also added a 4" turbo back exhaust, and improved the fuel system with new high pressure injector lines, air intake and other minor parts. It changes the truck dramatically, I can pull just about any grade at 60mph and exhaust temps under 1200 easily passing just about anyone I want anytime I want. I spent probably a total of 5k on the mods and it is extremely reliable. Towing I use 3 different tunes 20/40/60 hp depending on terrain and weight I am hauling to help keep exhaust temps down. Non towing I mostly use a modified stock tune and it drives like a gas powered truck I have to watch my lead foot as i find myself chirping the tires in 2nd and 3rd gear. I looked into all three major brands of new trucks and was thoroughly disappointed with the power and torque when I drove them. I am so happy I did not buy a new truck. Oh and I am towing with at 3.73 rear gear.

Steve

[rowekmr]

You maybe reluctant to modify but I invite you to visit a local powerstroke diesel shop and let them explain what they can do. I had a stock 6.0L and with just intake, exhaust and custom tune it was a whole different engine (plus bulletproofing). My 6.0L on the safe "street" tune would pull as strong if not stronger) than the new Ford 6.7l (F250) AND I got better mpg. I towed with it for 20k before letting it go (at 250k miles).

[ORbiker]

At least, do a good 4" exhaust to let the truck breath as it's going up the hills.

[Redwoodcamper]

Stock is a waste of your time. Or buy a new 2-3 yr old diesel for your 35-40k. You will be able to pull almost any hill at 55. 7.3s were the last decent Ford. Buy a Cummins and be done with it.

[lightning_drive]

burningman wrote:
An F650 is gonna be a slow turd. You can find it with the Cat C7, which is a bad choice (go read up on it or ask people that have 'em!) or a 5.9 Cummins which is a nice reliable engine but underpowered and very slow in those trucks (if you leave it stock). You already own an excellent truck for the job. It would do everything you wanted if you did what Turtle & Peeps said. Thousands and thousands of people have been setting up 7.3s right for many years. Being "a stock kind of guy" means you're gonna be slow (or spend $$$$$$$$$$ on a new truck) and buying an F650 isn't going to change that.
The lack of power is all in your stock fuel injection and stock turbo... that stock stuff is also why your EGTs are high. Go on some Ford truck forums and you'll learn all about what to do to make your truck work exactly how you want it to.
I'd MUCH rather have your F550 than an F650.

The F650 is gonna have a lot of very heavy drivetrain components, heavy flywheel and clutch, heavy trans, heavy gears and axles... all of which suck power and the truck is gonna weigh a whole lot more.

Going by what you say you want your truck to do, your best bets are 1.) keeping your F550 and setting it up right, 2.) buying a newer pickup that is already "turned up" at the factory, or 3.) buy a REAL truck, a full-size big-truck with a REAL engine. In general, medium-duty trucks like what you're talking about are the SLOWEST trucks on the road. I go around them in a Peterbilt with just an M11 Cummins all day long.

The problem with running a big-truck is cost of ownership, and they tend to beat up 5th wheel RV trailers. An F650 will probably shake your 5th wheel apart too.

I am starting to think I will stick with my truck and deal with the slow speeds while climbing.
I am towing with an airsafe fifth wheel hitch. 4 airbags to minimize the abuse the toy hauler takes.
Appreciate your input.
I'm still looking for input from a F650 owner.

[burningman]

An F650 is gonna be a slow turd. You can find it with the Cat C7, which is a bad choice (go read up on it or ask people that have 'em!) or a 5.9 Cummins which is a nice reliable engine but underpowered and very slow in those trucks (if you leave it stock). You already own an excellent truck for the job. It would do everything you wanted if you did what Turtle & Peeps said. Thousands and thousands of people have been setting up 7.3s right for many years. Being "a stock kind of guy" means you're gonna be slow (or spend $$$$$$$$$$ on a new truck) and buying an F650 isn't going to change that.
The lack of power is all in your stock fuel injection and stock turbo... that stock stuff is also why your EGTs are high. Go on some Ford truck forums and you'll learn all about what to do to make your truck work exactly how you want it to.
I'd MUCH rather have your F550 than an F650.

The F650 is gonna have a lot of very heavy drivetrain components, heavy flywheel and clutch, heavy trans, heavy gears and axles... all of which suck power and the truck is gonna weigh a whole lot more.

Going by what you say you want your truck to do, your best bets are 1.) keeping your F550 and setting it up right, 2.) buying a newer pickup that is already "turned up" at the factory, or 3.) buy a REAL truck, a full-size big-truck with a REAL engine. In general, medium-duty trucks like what you're talking about are the SLOWEST trucks on the road. I go around them in a Peterbilt with just an M11 Cummins all day long.

The problem with running a big-truck is cost of ownership, and they tend to beat up 5th wheel RV trailers. An F650 will probably shake your 5th wheel apart too.

[blofgren]

lightning driver wrote:

Wild Card wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Here, let me save you about 70 grand.

#1. Stop worrying about 1,300 EGT. With piston squirter you can go well above 1,500 EGT.

#2. Tune that 7.3 up to give it more fuel and timing.

#3. Put a big wheel turbo on that thing to keep the EGT's down with more fuel timing.

#4. That truck was built for a commercial rating not to haul a small RV around. You have a lot of HP margin to play with.

#5. Go on vacation!

I agree. Intake, exhaust and a good tuner. Should be able to get 400crank hp easily 500 wiTH injectors. The Pistons in that vintage PSD are forged, built to handle a good power boost.

I'm more of a stock kinda guy. Was thinking of the cat at 300 or 330 HP and 800 to 900 ft lbs of torque.

I never thought of a 20K lb toy hauler as a small RV :{) The 99 F550 has a max tow rating of 26K.
As to #5 I'm on it retired in Jan.

You would truly think your 7.3L was a different truck if you upgraded it as suggested here. This has been done many times to these trucks with great success.

We have a fleet of F-650 dump trucks with the 7.2L Cat at my work. On the upside they are very reliable workhorses. On the downside they are somewhat difficult to get in and out of, are very noisy, and have downright ridiculous turbo lag. I would think it would tow your fiver somewhat better than your current truck but not light years better.

JMHO but you have the best diesel Ford ever put in a pick up and you love the truck (I really like that era of Super Duties too). I would do the upgrades to it and be happy.

[Wild_Card]

Understand your points OP, I would rather have the 650 with a Cummins though over the Kitty Cat. More aftermarket support.

Look for Freightliner bussiness class M2 as well. I belive they can be had with a 60 series detroit, another good engine to have.

[lightning_drive]

Wild Card wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Here, let me save you about 70 grand.

#1. Stop worrying about 1,300 EGT. With piston squirter you can go well above 1,500 EGT.

#2. Tune that 7.3 up to give it more fuel and timing.

#3. Put a big wheel turbo on that thing to keep the EGT's down with more fuel timing.

#4. That truck was built for a commercial rating not to haul a small RV around. You have a lot of HP margin to play with.

#5. Go on vacation!

I agree. Intake, exhaust and a good tuner. Should be able to get 400crank hp easily 500 wiTH injectors. The Pistons in that vintage PSD are forged, built to handle a good power boost.

I'm more of a stock kinda guy. Was thinking of the cat at 300 or 330 HP and 800 to 900 ft lbs of torque.

I never thought of a 20K lb toy hauler as a small RV :{) The 99 F550 has a max tow rating of 26K.
As to #5 I'm on it retired in Jan.

[lightning_drive]

Wild Card wrote:
You can find the f650 with Cat and Cummins engines. Your issue is not enoug gears in the transmission.

Any modern diesel with 6spd trans will pull that trailer 3 times better.

Agreed Just too much green to get in that game.

[lightning_drive]

Wild Card wrote:
You can find the f650 with Cat and Cummins engines. Your issue is not enoug gears in the transmission.

Any modern diesel with 6spd trans will pull that trailer 3 times better.

No argument there just can't to spend the $75 to $80 grand for the new 6.7. Just retired so don't want to take on a bunch of debt. Not a fan of car payments.
I've been seeing the western Haulers and ford Supercrewzers with asking prices $36 to $39K 2001 to 2006 with cat/Allison combo. 99 to 150K on the clock.
Sell my F550 for $10K and my 76 Bronco with explorer MPI 5.0 for $17K and I'm not coming out of pocket too much for the F650.