Why I ordered an F-450 (and expect to be overweight)

[Viscerl]

Forums everywhere are replete with explanations and warnings that an F-450 payload (~4700) is lower than the equivalent F-350 (~5700).

We've ordered a Host Cascade (which might arrive before the truck, that's a whole different story {rolling eyes}), and Randal gave me a dry weight with options of 4100 lbs. (Our config is a little weird. No gen but tons of solar with LiFePO4) We'll be towing a small off-road trailer with a tongue weight of around 200lbs, but I do plan on towing car trailers to various tracks in the future. Open trailer is ~5000lbs with the car. Enclosed is around ~8000lbs with the car. Estimates 10% tongue weight is from 500-800 lbs. We're having the Magnum 30k put on the truck when it gets here so that we can use the Supertruss (+100lbs).

4700 payload
-4100 Host Cascade
-500 stuff
-600 family (there's 2 adults, 3 kids)
-800 tongue weight
-400 water
--------------
1700 overweight.

An equivalent F-350 would be ~700lbs overweight, which honestly isnt bad.
So why am I comfortable with the F-450 at 1700?

Everything that weighs more about the F-450 is below the suspension. The F-450's payload is less literally because it pushing down on the pavement (or a scale) more than the F-350.
Half-shafts (check)
Brakes (check)
Wheels (check)
TIres (check)
Wide-track front (check)

Everything listed above assists in making the "rated" F-350 payload more safe on an F-450.
So because I think the tires, wheels, shafts, brakes, and a set of Stableloads, adjustable shocks, and a Big-wig swaybar would help a 700lb overweight F-350 be safe, I'm excited about the F-450.

Interestingly, we had to get our Host order quickly because campers built after 3/1/2019 will have a ~9% price increase (Thanks Trunp!), so we might have a camper before a truck.

Y'all may think I'm rationalizing here, but a C/C would be useless to me outside of camper use. With the F-450 I've got a ton of hard-scaping, hauling, dump runs, etc planned that I couldnt do as easily with a flatbed.

[JIMNLIN]

The day will come when there is a high profile accident and that will be the end of this under enforcement. There are certainly commercial vehicle operators that have a much larger margin of safety than RVers, yet they have to go through the formalities.

JFI.... but LTL commercial operators use the same LDTs that we pull and carry our RV with...... and the same size gvwr flatdeck/enclosed/stock trailers using the same axles/tires/wheels have the same safety margins as the rv world.
In other words if I chose the F450 in question to do LTL work we weigh our trucks fawr and rawr separately with attention to those 9900 rawr for this particular LDT which may weigh in the 3700 lb range = approx around 6k lb money making payload.
We don't make money on a gvwr based payload sticker.

My point here is the margins of safety are the same in the rv world for the F450 pickup vs using it for LTL work.

[maxum1989]

timmac wrote:

twodownzero wrote:


There will be a day in my lifetime when RVs have to go through weigh stations and be inspected. The present lack of enforcement has resulted in an entire industry of unsafe and overloaded vehicles. Just look at motorhomes or larger 5th wheels if you need examples; the tires and axles barely have sufficient capacity to carry the empty campers, much less any cargo. The day will come when there is a high profile accident and that will be the end of this under enforcement. There are certainly commercial vehicle operators that have a much larger margin of safety than RVers, yet they have to go through the formalities.

I hope not, that will screw up my set-up, I am over weight but safe over weight..


😄

Maybe it should all start with the manufacturers giving actual weights instead of the made up figures they use now. I'm sure there are people out there that thought they had enough truck based on the brochures weights and sales people saying all will be good. Not everyone can replace their truck when they find out the weights weren't accurate.

[timmac]

twodownzero wrote:


There will be a day in my lifetime when RVs have to go through weigh stations and be inspected. The present lack of enforcement has resulted in an entire industry of unsafe and overloaded vehicles. Just look at motorhomes or larger 5th wheels if you need examples; the tires and axles barely have sufficient capacity to carry the empty campers, much less any cargo. The day will come when there is a high profile accident and that will be the end of this under enforcement. There are certainly commercial vehicle operators that have a much larger margin of safety than RVers, yet they have to go through the formalities.

I hope not, that will screw up my set-up, I am over weight but safe over weight..


😄

[twodownzero]

SoonDockin wrote:
Just be glad there is not much oversight in the RV world. The debate about sticker weight vs perceived capability will continue.

Yep. Just glad my current rig is within specs. Even loading a truck TO the spec is on the ragged edge for me. My next truck will have plenty of excess capacity, way beyond what I'll ever use.

[Kayteg1]

SoonDockin wrote:
Just be glad there is not much oversight in the RV world. The debate about sticker weight vs perceived capability will continue.

There is never going to be end to explanation why taxable and real ratings are so much different.
Maybe better stickies and FAQ would help, but then lot of members will rather start new topic than do a search.
On the other hand, I frequent automotive forum where 99% of problems are already covered in stickies.
New topics have 1 line answer "go to stickies"
Don't think too many likes that kind of conversation.
We come here for entertainment as well

[SoonDockin]

Just be glad there is not much oversight in the RV world. The debate about sticker weight vs perceived capability will continue.

[burningman]

So you believe that if Peterbilt rated new 389s for a 2000 payload just to make it fit a certain category, it would be less capable than an F350 and irresponsible to try to carry a camper on it.

Yes that’s exaggerating what was said but it follows the same logic, or lack of it.
The only reason it’s ever more responsible to run a lighter duty than a heavier duty truck is to comply with a poorly-written law your state may have that forces you to do so.
You are certainly not being safer or more responsible.

That’s not to say a 350 isn’t up to the task. It’s just that the numbers on the 450 aren’t real and it sounds as if you actually believe they are.

[Grit_dog]

Twodownzero and ticki, you two are sufficiently showing your ignorance for things mechanical, like, say, trucks. And that's ok. Not everyone is mechanically inclined or a mechanical engineer, but where it gets tiresome is impressing your uneducated opinions on others as if it is gospel, or as if everyone else not believing the same as you is somehow endangering the health and welfare of all who come near them.
My dad used to say "it's better to keep your mouth shut and look a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Appropriate words for discussions like this....

[Kayteg1]

California beside GVW has special stickers for GCVW, who are big numbers displaed on side of the vehicles.
I've seen F450 with 40,000lb stickers. Usually those with double-decker trailer hauling 5 cars on it.
I heard that you can re-register your truck at higher GVW in any state (if you are willing to pay higher fees) but never heard about anybody willingly doing so.
That said my 1999 F450 for several years was registered under 8800lb what was its empty weight. It took 7 years when starved for cash state send revenue seekers to catch the under registered truck and bring more money.
I've got pulled over when hauling a tractor, where front bucket was sticking over tailgate.
Sure did not look like 8800lb vehicle.
Still a friendly reminder. When you have commercially registered truck, regardless if you have TC on it, or a buldozer - you have obligation to drive via scales in states that require.
Never have seen Highway Patrol chasing camper, but the times might come.

[ticki2]

twodownzero wrote:
It sounds like you need a bigger truck.

I would never purposely buy a rig that I knew was overloaded. My state does not allow me to plate for more than GVWR, so I would be risking a ticket or worse.

If somehow I thought it was a good idea to do it, I certainly wouldn't post on the Internet and remove all doubt that I was aware the rig was overloaded.

I understand the sentiment that 19.5 tires, bigger brakes, etc., certainly make it a "safer" option. Shame on Ford for underrating their F-450 class vehicles. That said, we have a responsibility to other people on the road to operate them within their ratings.

There will be a day in my lifetime when RVs have to go through weigh stations and be inspected. The present lack of enforcement has resulted in an entire industry of unsafe and overloaded vehicles. Just look at motorhomes or larger 5th wheels if you need examples; the tires and axles barely have sufficient capacity to carry the empty campers, much less any cargo. The day will come when there is a high profile accident and that will be the end of this under enforcement. There are certainly commercial vehicle operators that have a much larger margin of safety than RVers, yet they have to go through the formalities.

You have the opportunity to buy a truck that is rated for the load you want to carry. Certainly you have the money to do so if you ordered a new camper and truck at the same time. Don't risk it.

NH does the same , they look it up in the book and it is registered for the manufacturers GVWR period . I find it interesting that the same people who say the manufacturers numbers are useless , accept the DMV higher numbers , if willing to pay , as justification that the truck is capable of much more than the maker says . I realize there is a certain amount of safety factor built in but who would like not have that reserve .

[twodownzero]

It sounds like you need a bigger truck.

I would never purposely buy a rig that I knew was overloaded. My state does not allow me to plate for more than GVWR, so I would be risking a ticket or worse.

If somehow I thought it was a good idea to do it, I certainly wouldn't post on the Internet and remove all doubt that I was aware the rig was overloaded.

I understand the sentiment that 19.5 tires, bigger brakes, etc., certainly make it a "safer" option. Shame on Ford for underrating their F-450 class vehicles. That said, we have a responsibility to other people on the road to operate them within their ratings.

There will be a day in my lifetime when RVs have to go through weigh stations and be inspected. The present lack of enforcement has resulted in an entire industry of unsafe and overloaded vehicles. Just look at motorhomes or larger 5th wheels if you need examples; the tires and axles barely have sufficient capacity to carry the empty campers, much less any cargo. The day will come when there is a high profile accident and that will be the end of this under enforcement. There are certainly commercial vehicle operators that have a much larger margin of safety than RVers, yet they have to go through the formalities.

You have the opportunity to buy a truck that is rated for the load you want to carry. Certainly you have the money to do so if you ordered a new camper and truck at the same time. Don't risk it.

[Kayteg1]

I heard rumors about Canada checks, but never a full report that TC was put on the scales.
In US I was carrying 10,000lb on my F450 flatbed and as law require- I drove via scales. Never got pulled over.
Forklifts were easy to carry as I could put their counterweight behind the cabin so COG was well between the axles.
Than when I was carrying 6000lb tractor, it was sticking past the tailgate and the truck sag like hell. Had to pump airbags to max to level it.
That was the time when I observe that even long wheelbase flatbed is still design as grocery getter with axle in 1/2 of the bed.
That is why I think OP will have heck of the issue with his heavy trailer on long stinger.
It takes F550 to get rear axle moved to the rear for better load handling.
Additional observation- why Mercedes SUV in ML class make great tow vehicles even with their light weight?
... their rear overhang is about 2 ft

[burningman]

Finally some people on RV.Net who understand that pickup truck gvwr ratings aren’t real!
Anyone who buys a 350 because they believe it’s more capable than a 450 is being fooled.
Same for the people who buy a gas engine truck to increase capacity over a diesel.
I’ve seen guys sell an earlier model dually and buy a new single rear wheel just for “more payload”.
Pickup trucks are given artificially low numbers so they stay in lighter licensing classes. That’s all.

The ones I feel sorry for are Canadians because their silly government believes those numbers and makes pickup owners stick to the brochure numbers.

[Wills6_4_Hemi]

I think the 450 should be called a F375 or something. It is a class 3 truck and that's fords doing. It has lower ratings than F350 and Ram 3500 trucks except GVWR they are the same. The truck is obviously a step above both with heavier components. My ram 3500 DRW has 5970lbs of payload wich is much greater than any of the current 450's. The 450 is obviously more truck imho. They need the raise the GVWR to 16,500 lbs or so.