8 Speed Auto for HD trucks

[ib516]

Apparently, ZF is making an 8 Speed HD trans that can handle 1000 lb-ft. 2020 release date. I see it as the next trans in the Ram 2500 and 3500s.

LINK

[mowermech]

valhalla360 wrote:

Me Again wrote:

So you are saying they are now throw away trucks? A Cummins engine can go a million miles. Wonder how many transmissions that will take?

The "million mile engine" myth...sure you can keep most any engine going that long but at 15k miles per year it will take 67yrs to hit 1 million miles.

Yes, most trucks are throw away before year 30 let alone 67. No manufacturer is designing and building based on million mile assumptions.

"million mile myth"?
it has already happened. I'm sure if you were to google it, you would find the reports.
My truck is almost halfway there, at 408,000 miles. The transmission was rebuilt once, and may need it again soon.
I got a good chuckle out of the "2 speed and three speed" comments. Am I the only one here that ever owned the GM Hydramatic 4 speed that Pontiac, Kaiser, and others used? Surely not. Even the military used it, or a variation of it, in 6X6 trucks. Of course, the M211 was quite possibly the sorriest 6X6 ever built...

[FishOnOne]

MFL wrote:
I use the lock out feature when towing heavy. I just lock out 6th, 5th is normally good, with few downshifts, unless continuing rolling hills, in which case I lock out 5th, stay in 4th. Towing heavy with same truck/FW, but with 10-speed, I'd have to lock out 10-9-8-7-6 until past hilly area, then add back 6-7-8, until headwind, lock out 8-7. Maybe most will just not use lock out, let the 10-speed continuously shift, call it good.

Not against change, or improvement, but my Ford 6-speed is a great, user friendly transmission, with spot on gear spacing.

Jerry

Jerry,
How can you comment which gears you will have to lock out when you don't know the gear ratios of the gears your referring to and you haven't towed with a 10 speed. Your assumption is the 10 speeds gear ratios 1-5 are the same as your 6 speed and I can assure you there not.

[MFL]

I use the lock out feature when towing heavy. I just lock out 6th, 5th is normally good, with few downshifts, unless continuing rolling hills, in which case I lock out 5th, stay in 4th. Towing heavy with same truck/FW, but with 10-speed, I'd have to lock out 10-9-8-7-6 until past hilly area, then add back 6-7-8, until headwind, lock out 8-7. Maybe most will just not use lock out, let the 10-speed continuously shift, call it good.

Not against change, or improvement, but my Ford 6-speed is a great, user friendly transmission, with spot on gear spacing.

Jerry

[FishOnOne]

thomasmnile wrote:
Isn't the number of gears more about improved fuel mileage more than anything? No comparison to a truck of course but the new Camry we bought has an 8 speed slush box and it shifts......... a lot!!! All in the name of that EPA sticker that was on the window proclaiming 39/28 MPG I suppose..........

Yes but another advantage is to keep the engine at its' sweet spot when towing as well.

This week I drove a Jeep Cherokee during a trip and it had a 9 speed. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with the shifting.

[thomasmnile]

Isn't the number of gears more about improved fuel mileage more than anything? No comparison to a truck of course but the new Camry we bought has an 8 speed slush box and it shifts......... a lot!!! All in the name of that EPA sticker that was on the window proclaiming 39/28 MPG I suppose..........

[FishOnOne]

Looks like Ford maybe testing their new HD 10 speed transmission.

Also glad to see David Ives still working on the Power Stroke product.

Link

[Frostbitte]

I figured the next gen RAM HD both gas and diesel with have a 8/10 speed transmission. Aisin already makes both a HD 8-speed and 10-speed so it's only a matter of time.
I'm not sure what all the negativity is about with 6-speeds being enough. I remember a lot of hoopla over half-tons going from 4-speeds to 6 a few years back. Most were worried their truck would shift too much. It was probably the same when folks went from 2/3 speeds to 4 and so on.
I couldn't imagine trying to tow my current setups with only 4 speeds never mind any trailer. It would be too frustrating.
I love my 68RFE. It does what it needs to do without complaint. With my current setup, I use all my gears. Sometimes I wish there was a gear between 5th and 6th. With 8/10 speed HD transmission, I don't think you'll see much higher OD gears but you will probably have a much broader gear spread from 1st to 8th/10th.
Our Durango has an 8-speed and that thing is fantastic. It's always in the right gear.

[Grit_dog]

Now the mfgs are building throwaway trucks? You guys are hilarious!
Couldn’t compare apples to apples if you were holding on in each hand.....
I’ve said it before, I know everyone has a complaint about everything here on geezernet, but have you naysayers compared, honestly, the difference in capability of transmissions from 2 and 3 speed autos to 4 to 5 to 6 to 8/10 speeds?
We can get factory 8 speeds that hold 800hp and 10 speeds that hold over 500hp and 6 speeds that hold 1000ft lbs, all for over 200k easy if maintinaed.
Go do the bestbuild on your 727, or turbo 400, feed it those levels and see if it gets half the miles out of it.

[wilber1]

valhalla360 wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

Me Again wrote:
Maybe Diesel/Electric will take over like Locomotives and Ships!

Basically that is the Volt, except it isn't diesel and it has a battery pack to store energy.

The Volt is a drastically different solution from a diesel/electric train even though there are some parallels the reasons and benefits have little to do with each other.

Yes there are big differences but they are the same in that the engine in the Volt does not power the wheels. It only runs a generator which powers an electric motor and charges batteries.

[valhalla360]

Me Again wrote:

So you are saying they are now throw away trucks? A Cummins engine can go a million miles. Wonder how many transmissions that will take?

The "million mile engine" myth...sure you can keep most any engine going that long but at 15k miles per year it will take 67yrs to hit 1 million miles.

Yes, most trucks are throw away before year 30 let alone 67. No manufacturer is designing and building based on million mile assumptions.

[Me_Again]

valhalla360 wrote:

Me Again wrote:

Rebuilding a 47RE cost around 3-4K. Rebuilding a 6 speed 68RFE cost 7-8K. Not sure on Aisin, as I have not heard of a rebuild. Rebuilding a 6R140 or Allsion 1000 6 speed are similar in the 7-8K range.

Image what a 10 speed will cost to rebuild!!!!

99.9% of new truck buyers will never rebuild the transmission. Most of the 0.1% that do will have it covered under warranty.

Manufacturers build vehicles for new car buyers and 2nd & 3rd owners with 200k mile trucks are not a priority.

So you are saying they are now throw away trucks? A Cummins engine can go a million miles. Wonder how many transmissions that will take?

[valhalla360]

Me Again wrote:

Rebuilding a 47RE cost around 3-4K. Rebuilding a 6 speed 68RFE cost 7-8K. Not sure on Aisin, as I have not heard of a rebuild. Rebuilding a 6R140 or Allsion 1000 6 speed are similar in the 7-8K range.

Image what a 10 speed will cost to rebuild!!!!

99.9% of new truck buyers will never rebuild the transmission. Most of the 0.1% that do will have it covered under warranty.

Manufacturers build vehicles for new car buyers and 2nd & 3rd owners with 200k mile trucks are not a priority.

[Bedlam]

hone eagle wrote:
as a point of interest because its not apples to apples, my volvo has a 12 speed (automated with 2 reverse)but never uses all the gears.
It can sense the load (very light) starts in 3 almost 99% of the time then skips the next 1 or 2 gears.These new transmissions may do the same, they have every possible gear for all conditions.
Does anyone know it they skip shift?

My 5R110 was actually a six speed but it used a particular combination only to warm up the transmission in cold weather - Otherwise, only five of the possible forward speeds were used.

[transamz9]

Me Again wrote:
For big trucks, the gear count came down not up as engine tuning increase the power ban in some cases. We had 5x4 and 5x3 transmission setups with a 5 speed main tranny and a 4 or 3 speed brownie. Creating 20 or 15 forward gears. Then the 13 speeds in one box, down to 9 as power bans increase in widths. Eaton Autoshift has 18 gears forward a 4 in reverse, and a clutch to start moving, not a torque converter.

It is a mixed bag depending on application.

Here is a write up on what is happening in heavy duty trucks.
https://www.truckinginfo.com/154981/transmission-trends

For pickups going from 4 speed autos to 6 was a great improvement. Ford and GM/Allison started in 2000ish with 5 and switched to 6. I am not sure in the HD pickup arena the that going to 8 or 10 will make a large improvement like going to 6 did.

For a hand full of users like Cummins12V98 having another OD for freeway cruising would be a benefit, however delivering power via a .50 to 1 third overdrive might be self defeating.

The question remains do diesel trucks need more gears within the same range as the 1-6 ratios that we have now. For my use, the answer is no. Better programming to assure the combination was always in the best gear for the conditions might be more beneficial than more gears(that would require similar programming to be effective).

The RAM/Cummins in the pipe line(for 2019 r 2020 models) with all smog stuff down stream of the engine, might be a much bigger improvement to mileage than any transmission change.

I can see a need for at least 2 more. I think you have the same combo as I do (3.42). I run combined 28-29K and with the 3.42's and Aisin the spread between 2 and 3 is pretty large when you throw in the converter locking at that time. When I take off at a light I have to push it pretty hard to get the RPM to rev to a point that it won't lug when it hits 3rd unless I'm on level to down hill grades. Also in certain situations like running the little backroads around my area lakes between 30-40 mph 3-4 is a big spread.

I've only got 4,500 miles on my new service truck but I can tell with the de-tuned power that it also struggles a little with 2-3 lock up in certain places. The truck is a 5500 with 4.88's and sits between 18-19K on 6 wheels with full fuel.

[monkey44]

Grit dog wrote:

monkey44 wrote:
HAHAHA == pretty soon we'll be spending all our time in the shifting mode, and no time in the driving mode. Can't wait for the announcement:

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your engines - we now have a twenty-speed Allison for your shifting pleasure.

Drive an 8 or 10 speed and get back to us.....

HA - shouda put a smiley face on the end of that one 🙂

NO thanks - I like my 2015 - 2500 HD, 6 sp / 4:10 ... does everything I need to to do. Altho, I don't haul as much as some of you with large TT or 5er, so the need is not there.

I do notice a very nice difference between this one and my previous '03 - 2500 w/ 4 sp / and 3:73 ...