Payload "capacity/rating" - not even the OEM's agree?

[RinconVTR]

There are two things that bother me most on this site, of which too many jump on the band wagon and become self-proclaimed experts repeating the same thing over and over until it becomes gospel.

1) Using GTWR (gross trailer weight rating) to find a tow vehicle to tow said trailer. Rarely will you find this in print anywhere but here. Yes, you’ll end up buying one heck of a TV, have big power, and capacity reserve, but this could easily result in overkill at a very high cost. Or the shopper feels forced to buy something too small and they don’t enjoy fully their experience.

I like what Trailer Life says the best:
When purchasing a trailer, consult the weight sticker on
the unit of your choice on a
dealer’s lot and refer to the UVW and CCC.
Estimate how much cargo you will add,
being mindful of the GVWR, and use that number
while selecting a tow vehicle.


2) Payload is king and cannot be exceeded. Time and time again, I hear “that truck doesn’t have enough payload capacity” and find many pickup trucks have payload caps that match mid-size SUV’s. Which seems crazy. One cant go wrong being conservative, but again, at what point does being extremely conservative begin to unnecessarily cost the buyer.

My stance on payload? Front and Rear Axle ratings, GVR and GCVR are king and can sometimes override payload ratings. If you stick to these ratings, which payload is derived from, you’ll find more realistic towing figures. But what’s in print?

Per Ford and Chevy towing guide, which make little to no mention of payload capacity, seem to be on my side of the fence. Dodge (towing guide) is a real red headed step child that makes little sense to me, as they exclude all towing factors from GVR. And ironically only Toyota (towing guide) mimics most statements on here, but leaves out axle weight ratings completly.

Here are the most relevant quotes related to payload from each recent OEM towing guide;

Ford:

Trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight should be 10-15% (15-25% for 5th-wheel towing) of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure vehicle payload (reduce by
option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle. Addition of trailer tongue
(trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR. These ratings can be found on the
vehicle Safety Compliance Certification Label.

GCWR column shows maximum allowable combined weight of vehicle, trailer and cargo (including passengers) for each engine/axle ratio combination. Maximum Loaded
Trailer Weight assumes a towing vehicle with any mandatory options, no cargo, tongue load of 10-15% (conventional trailer) or king pin weight of 15-25% (5th-wheel trailer) and driver
only (150 pounds). Weight of additional options, passengers, cargo and hitch must be deducted from this weight. Also check Required and Recommended Equipment.

GMC:
Trailer tongue weight should be 10 percent to 15 percent of total loadedtrailer weight (up to 600 lbs). Addition of trailer tongue weight must not cause vehicle to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR).

FIFTH-WHEEL AND GOOSENECK HITCH NOTES: Trailer kingpin weight should be 15 percent to 25 percent of total loaded trailer weight. For 1500 Series models, the trailer
kingpin weight should be up to 1500 lbs. The addition of trailer kingpin weight cannot cause vehicle to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). 1500
SERIES MODEL NOTES: For automatic transmission models, an additional transmission oil cooler (KNP) is available.

With trailer towing capacity, you must consider the gross combination weight rating. This figure includes the gross vehicle weight plus the gross vehicle weight of the trailer. When added together, you should never exceed this figure for any reason.

Chevy:

RGAWR AND GVWR: Addition of trailer hitch weight cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). These ratings can be
found on the certification label located on the driver door or door frame.

GCWR: The Gross Combination Weight Rating is the total allowable weight of the completely loaded vehicle and trailer.
TRAILER weight RATING : This rating is determined by subtracting the tow vehicle’s weight (curb weight) from the GCWR. Base vehicle (curb) weight is used, so additional passenger, equipment and
cargo weight reduces this rating.

Maximum trailer weight ratings are calculated assuming a base vehicle, except for any option(s) necessary to achieve the rating, plus driver. The weight of other optional equipment, passengers and cargo will reduce the maximum trailer weight your vehicle can tow.

4 Maximum payload capacity includes weight of driver,
passengers, optional equipment and cargo.

5 Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). When properly equipped; includes vehicle, passengers, cargo and equipment.

NOTE: Trailertongue weight should be 10 to 15 percent of total loaded trailer weight (up to 1,500 lbs. on 2500HD and 3500HD models). Trailer kingpin weight should be 15 to 25 percent of total loaded trailer weight (up to 3,000 lbs. on 2500HD
models and up to 3,500 lbs. on 3500HD models). • Addition of trailer tongue weight/trailer kingpin weight cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR).

Dodge:

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is the total weight of a fully loaded vehicle, including passengers and payload – but excluding all towing.

Gross Combined Vehicle Weight (GCVW) is the total combined weight of a fully loaded vehicle, including passengers, payload and everything in tow.

Toyota:
A truck’s published payload capacity or rating is the starting guideline for carrying cargo. Payload is the weight of everything that a truck can carry and includes vehicle occupants, optional equipment, contents in the pickup bed or cabin and the tongue weight of a trailer.

The maximum payload capacity is determined by subtracting the
vehicle curb weight from the manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR).

Owners expecting to haul loads approaching the published payload rating for a particular truck configuration should weigh the vehicle at a commercial scale with a full tank of gas to ensure that the GVWR is not exceeded when the expected passengers and cargo are loaded.

Another critical consideration:
Tongue weight must be included in the tow vehicle’s payload.


Finally, Trailer Life Towing Guide, like Ford and Chevy, makes little to no mention of payload "capacity or rating" within their calulations or example. I'm opting not to post the example, but I will post their definitions as they include cargo/payload but not as a rating they utilize.

Gross Combination Weight Rating
(GCWR): The total allowable weight of the tow
vehicle, the trailer, the cargo in each, hitch
hardware, fluids and occupants.

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR): The
total allowable weight for the vehicle, including
occupants, fluids, options, hitch hardware,
cargo and trailer-hitch weight.

Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR): The
total allowable weight on an individual axle.
This includes the weight of the tires, wheels,
brakes and the axle itself.

Maximum Tow Rating: The manufacturer’s
weight limit for towed loads. For conventional
trailers, this normally includes a hitchweight
limit as well; for fifth-wheels, the pin
weight is applied to the truck’s GVWR and its
rear-axle GAWR.

[john_bet]

blt2ski wrote:
I some, if not most or many parts of the US, the what some are calling commercial vs private law, is not that black and white per say. THey are one and the same as to how much you can legally put on a given axel etc. Be you using a class 8 tandem tractor to pull a large 5w. Or a converted diesel pusher bus to an RV. ALL of these people driving these rigs, need to stay below the FBL axel wts to be legal of pulled over, go thru a scale house etc. If over, they "should" get an overwt ticket just as commercial drivers do! That is how it at least works here in Washington. There is not private RV laws vs commercial. Having looked at and read the FBL's, there is no distinction from an actual how we are all to be enforced.

Yes, private rigs do not need special licenses, nor do they need to follow hrs driving......but there vehicles need to follow the laws for ANY rig over 10K gvw! At here I do. I can not tow of have my 3500 at or above 10K lbs, and follow the speed limit 70 mph sign were legal, I need to follow the truck 60 mph speed limit! same with chaining up in the winter. chains required over 10K, does not matter what I am driving or pulling, if the total is over 10K, I need to chain up.

Marty

I have as of yet not towed in Washington State, but if I was to with my Indiana registered rig, then I would need to stop at the scales. Is that right?

[monkey44]

One thing for certain, and this has nothing to do with scales and everything to do with the driver.

If you feel unsafe, you're too heavy ... when your load is too much for the truck, you'll know it pretty quickly. The truck will tell you in no uncertain terms, because it will be hard to control and will not respond in a way you want - and your knuckles will turn white.

Regardless of Specs, Weights, Axles, Tires, Brakes - if you can't tell by driving it whether it's safe or unsafe, then you got no business driving it.

[blt2ski]

I some, if not most or many parts of the US, the what some are calling commercial vs private law, is not that black and white per say. THey are one and the same as to how much you can legally put on a given axel etc. Be you using a class 8 tandem tractor to pull a large 5w. Or a converted diesel pusher bus to an RV. ALL of these people driving these rigs, need to stay below the FBL axel wts to be legal of pulled over, go thru a scale house etc. If over, they "should" get an overwt ticket just as commercial drivers do! That is how it at least works here in Washington. There is not private RV laws vs commercial. Having looked at and read the FBL's, there is no distinction from an actual how we are all to be enforced.

Yes, private rigs do not need special licenses, nor do they need to follow hrs driving......but there vehicles need to follow the laws for ANY rig over 10K gvw! At here I do. I can not tow of have my 3500 at or above 10K lbs, and follow the speed limit 70 mph sign were legal, I need to follow the truck 60 mph speed limit! same with chaining up in the winter. chains required over 10K, does not matter what I am driving or pulling, if the total is over 10K, I need to chain up.

Marty

[JIMNLIN]

Me Again wrote:
Well I have been looking for several hours at BC documents and can not find a reg that the FAQ are based on. So someone please point me to the law. Thanks Chris

The FAQ is simply a info sheet similar to info sheets NHTSA puts out on their websites. Non are regulatory.
Go on down to the bottom of the info sheet and it says quote:

"Information on this Info sheet is subject to
change without notice. In the event of
conflict with this Info Sheet and the Motor
Vehicle Act and Regulations, the
Acts and Regulations shall apply"

Now go to BC's BC Motor Vehicle Act Regulations

Weight scales:

19.05
......this section is about weighing of vehicles...now go on down to para 4 which says;

(4) The gross weight of any vehicle or combination of vehicles shall be the sum of the individual gross axle weights of all the axles of the vehicle or combination of vehicles."

BC folks say they have to register their trucks at a GVWR. A GVWR in BC may come from the truck maker or it can come from the sum of the GAWRs which ever the truck owner chooses.

I just posted this on another thread but its from a BC truck/trailer owner;
dukesofhazzardcounty

British Columbia

langley

New Member

Joined: 08/23/2011

well another phone call to a dot worker that I personally know,
here it is, go by the gross axle weight rating front and rear, tire ratings, and then make sure you are not over your licensed gross rating, ex. mine is 4600kg, he said after you get the camper and if you are under on the axle ratings and tire ratings but over the licensed gross rating, up your insurance to be over your total gross, this is the cash grab part of it, you are paying more for fixing the roads etc. the more weight you are. so there you have it from the bc dot. (snipped)

[SKGCRD]

Larry

The thread took a turn towards commercial law, but none-the-less, I want to put out a call to anyone who can provide a CIVIL TRIAL example of someone who was sued for being over any given automotive or trailer manufacture’s weight rating. No commercial driver examples. I’m talking private citizens being sued in CIVIL court for towing while over a weight rating.

Another challenge which I found no results; Show us actual police reports that found the driver of an accident negligent (got a ticket) for towing while over any given weight rating.


For the record, just because I’m asking challenging questions doesn’t mean for one minute I am trying to justify abusing any given rating, for any product.



Attached is a site to search legal proceedings and their outcomes for all of Canada. I cannot find a single suit for exceeding MFGer suggested weights. BC law and its enforcement is known for excess. Float your boat Wilbor and Jimnlin!!! http://www.canlii.org/en/

[blt2ski]

jmtandem wrote:

They THEN have to, if they can, move the load so that it is spread over ALL the axels under the max per the road stress limits. The driver will have 8 hrs if they can do it by hand, simple tools etc.

Sometimes sliding the tandems is all that is needed to reposition the load and get weights within the 12, 34 and 34 maximums. I think drivers know how much each hole on the tandems changes/shifts the weights.

This is assuming that the rig has tandems or solo/tandems that move. If it does not, then you are screwed. Trailers such as low boys do not have axels that move. Or if you have air controlled drop axels, one can change the amount on an axel also.

In the case of say an rv'r....if you were over an axel limit per the wt leo's in a wt shack......You would be moving things around. Like of over a drive axel of a sw pickup, the clothes in typically a front bedroom slide closet, ie very front of the trailer in front of the pin could be moved to the back of the trailer. OR depending upon how much water you have in the tanks, and how it effects the amount on the trailer or truck axels could be dumped. OR, you start leaving things behind!!! as they did back in the wagon trains with oxen power. If the oxen could not pull the trailer up the hill, momma's grand piano got dumped out of the back end!

Marty

[RinconVTR]

jmtandem wrote:


I don't understand why you would think that erring on the safe side is something that bothers you. I would think a prudent person would encourage it. Even the Bible says that there is wisdom in the counsel of many.

Buying an oversized truck to pull a small trailer doesn’t make you any safer than someone taking full advantage of a trucks capacity. There are far too many variables to make such an assessment.

And do you know what wisdom is? I can tell you what its not. It is not arbitrarily picking a tow vehicle based on one trailers gross weight rating assuming that’s that safest option.

Most put all these weight ratings together with safety, and while they sure can be related, there is no direct correlation that I have ever seen. If there is data stating otherwise, let’s see it.

donn0128 wrote:
How many people can "estimate" the stuff they load into their RV within 500 pounds? Darn few. I see nothing wrong to take a trailers GVWR as your starting point. While is may be unlikely that a person will hit the GVWR ( but I do) trying to guess how much your stuff weighs is going to make a person crazy.

To me your post is a lot of smoke and mirrors designed to help people justify overloading their TV instead of addressing the real issue and having the correct tool for the job.

You’re joking on both accounts right? It is extremely easy to estimate weights of cargo. And if you know yourself well enough, you know how you chose to pack. My family packs light, per trip. Others pack heavy and are ready for any trip or event at the drop of a hat.

Smoke and mirrors? Clearly that was my intent. That's why I spent significant time posting less opinion and more copy/paste from other major sources.

APT wrote:
No one buys the "Base Curb Weight" vehicle.

Yes you do. We all do. Curb weight is all fluids and anything as shipped from the factory. No passengers or cargo. OEM's state different curb weights for every option package they offer. I've scaled two prior (new at the time) TV's and weights were just over 100lbs over the OEM curb weight specified. Of which, the 100lbs+ could easily be accounted for.

sch911 wrote:


There is no 80% rule. You can run right up to the maximum ratings. .

I have stated the same thing on here often enough. It’s a “rule of thumb” only for those who feel they need to be very conservative and have a big reserve. The "need" should be justified fairly with complete information of what the drivers and family needs really are.

LarryJM wrote:
While there might not be any "WRITTEN LAWS" directly related to GVWR issues I can easily see how operating a vehicle outside the FMVSS certified limits could easily be considered "NEGLIGENT" or "RECKLESS" operation of a motor vehicle in a CIVIL and even a possible CRIMINAL legal proceeding


Larry

The thread took a turn towards commercial law, but none-the-less, I want to put out a call to anyone who can provide a CIVIL TRIAL example of someone who was sued for being over any given automotive or trailer manufacture’s weight rating. No commercial driver examples. I’m talking private citizens being sued in CIVIL court for towing while over a weight rating.

Another challenge which I found no results; Show us actual police reports that found the driver of an accident negligent (got a ticket) for towing while over any given weight rating.


For the record, just because I’m asking challenging questions doesn’t mean for one minute I am trying to justify abusing any given rating, for any product.

[jmtandem]

They THEN have to, if they can, move the load so that it is spread over ALL the axels under the max per the road stress limits. The driver will have 8 hrs if they can do it by hand, simple tools etc.

Sometimes sliding the tandems is all that is needed to reposition the load and get weights within the 12, 34 and 34 maximums. I think drivers know how much each hole on the tandems changes/shifts the weights.

[Me_Again]

Well I have been looking for several hours at BC documents and can not find a reg that the FAQ are based on. So someone please point me to the law. Thanks Chris

[blt2ski]

Of course table 2 is showing stress on the roads. THAT is what wt cops enforce. Wts that the road bed/bridges etc can handle. If you have a rig with gawr's higher than what table 2 allows, you WILL get an overweight ticket! if you are under those wts, you will not get an overwt ticket, UNLESS, your paid for license is greater.

You can, and I know those that have gotten overwt tickets for being under there total paid for wt tags. The issue is that the load was not spread correctly. They may have 11500 on an FA, limit maybe 12K, Rear tandem is 30000, limit 34000, but the drive tandem has 36000 on it, limit again, is 34000. Yet they are under the 80K total paid for license! Since they are over the drivers by 2000 lbs, they get a ticket, fine etc for being overwt by 2000lbs. They THEN have to, if they can, move the load so that it is spread over ALL the axels under the max per the road stress limits. The driver will have 8 hrs if they can do it by hand, simple tools etc. If not, then they will be allowed to go forward, AFTER PAYING addition fee' for the damage to the roads they will cause.

Many RV's, not a lot, ie diesel pushers for example, if not loaded correctly will be over the RA amount. I wish these folks would get pulled over and fined. They may be under the fmvss limits of say 25K per axel, but they are over the road stress design at least here in the states by 5000 lbs.

Then one also has to ask about the link Wilber pointed out, and there is one dang near like it on the Wa St DOT site, what is and who's definition of GVWR are we using? The Manufactures GVWR? OR the leo in a wt shack/station/van with portable scales? ie the loads in table 2! Both numbers could be defined as a GVWR!

Marty

[wilber1]

Me Again wrote:
Here is an interesting one. *Alberta Transportation recommends that you do not exceed any of the three ratings

Read page four.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/recvehtowguide.pdf

and another

http://www.novascotia.ca/just/regulations/regs/mvwd.htm#TOC1_5

Look at table 2 page 14 in this one:

http://www.highwaysafetyroundtable.ca/member/documents/RAC%20Heavy%20Truck%2003.pdf

Chris

Interesting. In the case of table 2, I think those weights are all about stress on the roads, not the structural capability of trucks.

The Alberta article is good. Does "should" mean "shall"? What is the law? I had a chief pilot once who when people started treating "shoulds" in the operations manual as optional, wrote a letter stating "those who treat should as shall, should remain employed".

To muddy the waters even more. When it comes to school busses in BC the regs say categorically that the GVWR shall not be exceeded.

[Me_Again]

06Fargo wrote:


In any case I'm still saving up for a Kenworth dually.:) In AB I can license a 2 axle class 8 as a private vehicle at 32,000 lbs. It will have a GVWR of 80,000lbs on the door sticker. It won't have four wheel drive and will get stuck on wet grass, but I'm sure it will be much safer than my little truck. Once we get out of the yard on a damp morning :).

In the states they register those as Motorhomes, and no special driver license is required.

Chris

[noteven]

wilber1 wrote:

Me Again wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

Me Again wrote:

wilber1 wrote:



Licensing for a different GVWR than placarded is intended for commercial operators.

In the State of Washington ALL pickups at licensed at 1.5 tare weight rounded to the next higher even ton.

Commercial or private makes no difference.

Regarding GVWR in BC, Jimnlin has posted a number of times about that, and points to where that ruling actually points to standard weight laws and LEO's doing the GVWR thing are mis-informed!

Chris

FAQ's GVWR in BC

OK, here is a post made by jimnlin back in March:

"RV folks sure get confused on BC weight regulations actually says.

The link supplied by VintageRacer is a information sheet only and is not regulatory or a written law. There are 2-3 other versions BC has floating around the net. But they all tell us quote;

"This information sheet is intended to assist you. Should conflict arise please refer to the Motor Vehicle Act and Regulation".

Now we go to BC Motor Vehicle Act and Regulations and regulation;
section 19.05; ......(snipped for length)

(2) The driver of a vehicle on a highway, when directed by a traffic sign on the highway to drive over scales, shall drive the vehicle to the scales for the purpose of weighing the whole or part thereof by means of stationary or portable scales, measuring the dimensions of the vehicle and load, measuring and inspecting the tires thereon, inspecting the load carried, or for any purpose under this Act or regulations.

(3) The gross weight of any tandem axles and the gross weight of any group of axles shall be the sum of the gross axle weights of all the axles comprising the tandem axles or the group of axles, as the case may be.

(4) The gross weight of any vehicle or combination of vehicles shall be the sum of the individual gross axle weights of all the axles of the vehicle or combination of vehicles.

(en. B.C. Reg. 68/71, s. 5; am. B.C. Regs. 413/97, App. 1, s. 11; 135/2003, s. 6.)
****************************************************************

As in any state or province stay under the trucks axle/tire load ratings.
One thing I've noticed is that folks from BC say they are required to register their trucks at a "GVWR". The GVWR can be up to the sum of the vehicles axle ratings (GAWRs).

However as long as your registered according to your states requirement you will be fine going through BC or anywhere. "

Chris

I read that to and it is in the commercial vehicles section. I do agree that there is confusion regarding RV's in BC but it seems quite clear that you cannot register your vehicle for any more than it's combined axle ratings.

Thanks for this info -

[Me_Again]

Here is an interesting one. *Alberta Transportation recommends that you do not exceed any of the three ratings

Read page four.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/recvehtowguide.pdf

and another

http://www.novascotia.ca/just/regulations/regs/mvwd.htm#TOC1_5

Look at table 2 page 14 in this one:

http://www.highwaysafetyroundtable.ca/member/documents/RAC%20Heavy%20Truck%2003.pdf

Chris

[TomG2]

We used to purchase the next size up license for our dump trucks. The licensing system had ranges that were either too low or too high for our equipment. This had nothing to do with whether the trucks were overloaded mechanically or not. Simply better to have a 50,000 pound license when loaded to 48,000 pounds than one for 46,000 pounds. Licensing requirements are not necessarily tied to equipment capability. Heck, they used to be based on engine size.