Interesting comparison F250 vs F250 - axle ratio

[ib516]

So Pickuptrucks.com did some testing in 2010 at Milan Dragway in one of their comparisons, and again in 2014 using the same place.

Both times an F250 with the 6.2L V8 gas engine was tested. In the 2010 Shootout, they used a 2011 model, and in 2014, they used a 2014 model. Both were rated at the same 385hp/405tq.

The only difference between the trucks was that one had a 3.73 axle (2014), and the other had a 4.30 axle (2011).

Here are the comparisons:

0-60:
3.73 axle truck - 9.03 sec
4.30 axle truck - 9.80 sec

1/4 mile:
3.73 axle truck - 17.2 sec @ 83.4 mph
4.30 axle truck - 17.5 sec @ 84.3 mph

I would have thought the 4.30 geared truck would have been faster accelerating than the 3.73 truck. Same cab & body style, both 4x4 automatics with the same transmission.

The same thing happened when Pickuptrucks.com tested two GM 1500s, each with the 6.2L V8. The 3.42 truck was slightly slower accelerating than the 3.23 truck. Weird.

Now, for those of you keyboard warriors that are getting ready to type "I didn't buy my truck to drag race" or, "who cares about 0-60 times?"
Save it. It's just a discussion. Take your heart meds and go back to watching the Price is Right. :B

References:
2014 test - 3.73 axle

2010 test - 4.30 axle

GM vs GM / 3.23 vs 3.42

[BenK]

Funny and a big secret of mine with the local kids who challenge my 19 year old Sub

They've come back with tunes and then are competitive out on the local boulevard

I don't go out looking, but hardly ever pass up a good one....but
at +163K miles...it is no longer able to smoke the tires 😞


Why these time to distance is so out of it...as it has a huge new set of variables

Fly by wire and total computer control over just about every aspect of the
throttle. Even the butterfly is no longer directly linked to the throttle cable,
as there is no longer a cable

Then even the various tuners have their own levels of safeties and that is yet
another variable

Do their stuff kick in before closed loop? If yes, then how do they
manage the thermal safeties?

Do they manage CAT temps and do they then do what the OEMs do by
fueling more...not for the combustion, but to cool the CATs

Do they know the rate of change on the throttle and then mimic what
your foot is saying via the throttle or do they stick with the OEM's
dialed in hysteresis? Or is the potentiometer on the throttle capable
of transmitting that rate of change well enough to know what the foot
has told the throttle?

and a big ETC on that stuff

[4X4Dodger]

ib516 wrote:
So Pickuptrucks.com did some testing in 2010 at Milan Dragway in one of their comparisons, and again in 2014 using the same place.

Both times an F250 with the 6.2L V8 gas engine was tested. In the 2010 Shootout, they used a 2011 model, and in 2014, they used a 2014 model. Both were rated at the same 385hp/405tq.

The only difference between the trucks was that one had a 3.73 axle (2014), and the other had a 4.30 axle (2011).

Here are the comparisons:

0-60:
3.73 axle truck - 9.03 sec
4.30 axle truck - 9.80 sec

1/4 mile:
3.73 axle truck - 17.2 sec @ 83.4 mph
4.30 axle truck - 17.5 sec @ 84.3 mph

I would have thought the 4.30 geared truck would have been faster accelerating than the 3.73 truck. Same cab & body style, both 4x4 automatics with the same transmission.

The same thing happened when Pickuptrucks.com tested two GM 1500s, each with the 6.2L V8. The 3.42 truck was slightly slower accelerating than the 3.23 truck. Weird.

Now, for those of you keyboard warriors that are getting ready to type "I didn't buy my truck to drag race" or, "who cares about 0-60 times?"
Save it. It's just a discussion. Take your heart meds and go back to watching the Price is Right. :B

References:
2014 test - 3.73 axle

2010 test - 4.30 axle

GM vs GM / 3.23 vs 3.42

The Dodge Ram beat out the Ford and Chevy in every test and this is what P/U trucks .com wrote:

To some, since Ram had the biggest engine and 4.10:1 axle gears (where the Ford was only equipped with 3.73:1 axle gears), the outcome was not unexpected. But it's worth noting here the Ford did outweigh the other trucks by at least 120 pounds (more than the Ram and 380 pounds more than the Chevy), yet it gave our driver the most thrilling launches off the line. Clearly, the Ford engineers have done the best job of allowing the most power to get to the rear wheels for hard acceleration starts. Of course, that also meant we'd have to be careful at stop-sign launches in the rain.

During our loaded runs, which included 62 bags of rock salt (weighing 40 pounds each) moved from one bed to another by a team of Cars.com editors, we had, as you might expect, no trouble with spinning tires at the start line. Again, the bigger and stronger Ram 2500 muscled ahead of the other two competitors.

The above should be enough to answer your question. Transmission differences and weight differences. You must count the transmission ratio with the rear axle ratio to arrive at the FINAL DRIVE ratio. Only comparing the rear ends is meaningless.

[shadows4]

Never mind.

[Perrysburg_Dodg]

Or it could be the ECM not letting the lower gear ratio trash the trucks drive line. Think launch control, put your foot to the floor off the line and the ECM will de-fule and retard the timing truck. This is to save the trans, drive shafts and rear ends.

Don

[YZ]

DirtyOil wrote:

Perhaps to the garage to be fixed...

I have noticed that when the truck is used to make a living or where the the environment is tough, everybody seems to drive a RAM..that kinda tells ya something...

..and my mechanics really like Fords / Chevvies because they keep them busy especially the diesels..

and I hear the '15 RAMs are even better...

.... and let the games begin... :B

Did I start something or let the best truck brand out of the bag 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiGnRetNDEw

[DirtyOil]

Perhaps to the garage to be fixed...

I have noticed that when the truck is used to make a living or where the the environment is tough, everybody seems to drive a RAM..that kinda tells ya something...

..and my mechanics really like Fords / Chevvies because they keep them busy especially the diesels..

and I hear the '15 RAMs are even better...

.... and let the games begin... :B

[YZ]

TomG2 wrote:
Besides, if you are in a hurry, you should have got a Chevrolet.

Perhaps to the garage to be fixed...

I have noticed that when the truck is used to make a living or where the the environment is tough, everybody seems to drive a RAM..that kinda tells ya something...

..and my mechanics really like Fords / Chevvies because they keep them busy 🙂 especially the diesels..

and I hear the '15 RAMs are even better...

[8iron]

Gdetrailer wrote:

8iron wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
My guess is that the 4.30 made 1 more shift getting up to 60 mph .... so third gear where as the 3.73 would make it to 60 mph in 2nd. That would be a big advantage for the 3.73 as it would be running close to maximum horsepower as it approached 60 mph instead of loosing time to shift and then running at a lower horsepower rpm as it approached the 60 mph mark.


And it could be a similar thing in the 1/4 mile.

Winner, winner chicken diner!

To make a very complex explanation as short as I can:

Lets say an engine makes it's peak HP at 7,000 RPM. The closer I can keep that vehicle at 7,000 RPM for a given race, the quicker that vehicle is going to be.

To get the best time out of their cars racers actually over rev their engines slightly to do this.

EX: Again using the 7000K peak HP engine: An engine that is shifted at 7,200 RPM which drops back to 6,500 will be quicker than an engine shifted at 7,000K and drops back to 6,300K.

As 4x4 has alluded to, I suspect the 4:30 geared truck was caught in between two gears. If one did the math, I suspect the 3:73 truck kept it's % of RPM closer to peak HP.

This is a prime example of gears not making HP. In fact, as I have stated in the past, it's (slightly) the opposite.

With the car I drive right now we went from a 4:11 gear to a 3:73 gear and the ET got slightly quicker and the MPH went way up. We improved the HP slightly and the ET showed it.

Race cars and modern day trucks are far, far apart in technology..

You have to own a 6.2 to fully understand as to why the race between 3.73 and 4.30 outcome was not as folks would expect..

You see, the 6.2 engine management has a very aggressive computer program called traction assist.

Traction assist throttles back the engine automatically to prevent you from breaking traction..

Traction assist also does not open the throttle quickly below 2K RPM which also results in a bit slower acceleration at low speed..

I would bet that there are different throttle curves for the two different axle ratios on top of that.

4.30 ratio is far easier to break traction than 3.73 so unless they intentionally TURN OFF the traction assist (traction assist is AUTOMATICALLY ENABLED ON EVERY START) I can easily see how the 4.30 ratio would turn in slightly slower times..

Don't confuse torque management with Fords Flintstone like traction control. TC only activates once wheel spin is detected...and usually not for a good bit after the wheels are spinning.

No, sorry traction control is full time AND cuts back the throttle BEFORE the wheels ever get a chance to break loose.

I HAVE experienced this more than once.. It often makes me mad especially when you REALLY need to pour on the coals when you are STUCK 8 inches of snow :M and trying to spin your way out.

Traction control STOPS you from opening the throttle at the least bit of wheel slip, it detects this extremely fast well before you would.. Trust me.. I have more than once had to reach all the way over to the passenger side to turn it off (why in the world would those idiots stick this button nearly out of reach of the driver is beyond me)..

I would bet if they turned off the traction assist the numbers would have been a bit different.. the 4.30 ratio would have broke traction faster and easier than the 3.73..

But really.. who in the world really cares about racing 7000 lb trucks any way.. They were never intentioned for being fast off the line and never intentioned to go fast.. They are not Corvettes and never will be.

The 6.2 is a very nice powerful engine and using it for what it WAS designed and intended for (pulling heavy loads easily) is what I use it for :B

Again you are confusing engine torque management with traction control. TC reduces wheel spin using the ABS sensors. Torque management limits throttle position in lower gears at slower speeds. This is why a lot of 6.2 owners are turning to 5Star and other tuners to bypass the torque management. I've owned a 6.2 and unless it's on snow or ice, wheel spin is not a problem you need to ever worry about.

[Gdetrailer]

8iron wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
My guess is that the 4.30 made 1 more shift getting up to 60 mph .... so third gear where as the 3.73 would make it to 60 mph in 2nd. That would be a big advantage for the 3.73 as it would be running close to maximum horsepower as it approached 60 mph instead of loosing time to shift and then running at a lower horsepower rpm as it approached the 60 mph mark.


And it could be a similar thing in the 1/4 mile.

Winner, winner chicken diner!

To make a very complex explanation as short as I can:

Lets say an engine makes it's peak HP at 7,000 RPM. The closer I can keep that vehicle at 7,000 RPM for a given race, the quicker that vehicle is going to be.

To get the best time out of their cars racers actually over rev their engines slightly to do this.

EX: Again using the 7000K peak HP engine: An engine that is shifted at 7,200 RPM which drops back to 6,500 will be quicker than an engine shifted at 7,000K and drops back to 6,300K.

As 4x4 has alluded to, I suspect the 4:30 geared truck was caught in between two gears. If one did the math, I suspect the 3:73 truck kept it's % of RPM closer to peak HP.

This is a prime example of gears not making HP. In fact, as I have stated in the past, it's (slightly) the opposite.

With the car I drive right now we went from a 4:11 gear to a 3:73 gear and the ET got slightly quicker and the MPH went way up. We improved the HP slightly and the ET showed it.

Race cars and modern day trucks are far, far apart in technology..

You have to own a 6.2 to fully understand as to why the race between 3.73 and 4.30 outcome was not as folks would expect..

You see, the 6.2 engine management has a very aggressive computer program called traction assist.

Traction assist throttles back the engine automatically to prevent you from breaking traction..

Traction assist also does not open the throttle quickly below 2K RPM which also results in a bit slower acceleration at low speed..

I would bet that there are different throttle curves for the two different axle ratios on top of that.

4.30 ratio is far easier to break traction than 3.73 so unless they intentionally TURN OFF the traction assist (traction assist is AUTOMATICALLY ENABLED ON EVERY START) I can easily see how the 4.30 ratio would turn in slightly slower times..

Don't confuse torque management with Fords Flintstone like traction control. TC only activates once wheel spin is detected...and usually not for a good bit after the wheels are spinning.

No, sorry traction control is full time AND cuts back the throttle BEFORE the wheels ever get a chance to break loose.

I HAVE experienced this more than once.. It often makes me mad especially when you REALLY need to pour on the coals when you are STUCK 8 inches of snow :M and trying to spin your way out.

Traction control STOPS you from opening the throttle at the least bit of wheel slip, it detects this extremely fast well before you would.. Trust me.. I have more than once had to reach all the way over to the passenger side to turn it off (why in the world would those idiots stick this button nearly out of reach of the driver is beyond me)..

I would bet if they turned off the traction assist the numbers would have been a bit different.. the 4.30 ratio would have broke traction faster and easier than the 3.73..

But really.. who in the world really cares about racing 7000 lb trucks any way.. They were never intentioned for being fast off the line and never intentioned to go fast.. They are not Corvettes and never will be.

The 6.2 is a very nice powerful engine and using it for what it WAS designed and intended for (pulling heavy loads easily) is what I use it for :B

[TomG2]

Besides, if you are in a hurry, you should have got a Chevrolet.

[8iron]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
My guess is that the 4.30 made 1 more shift getting up to 60 mph .... so third gear where as the 3.73 would make it to 60 mph in 2nd. That would be a big advantage for the 3.73 as it would be running close to maximum horsepower as it approached 60 mph instead of loosing time to shift and then running at a lower horsepower rpm as it approached the 60 mph mark.


And it could be a similar thing in the 1/4 mile.

Winner, winner chicken diner!

To make a very complex explanation as short as I can:

Lets say an engine makes it's peak HP at 7,000 RPM. The closer I can keep that vehicle at 7,000 RPM for a given race, the quicker that vehicle is going to be.

To get the best time out of their cars racers actually over rev their engines slightly to do this.

EX: Again using the 7000K peak HP engine: An engine that is shifted at 7,200 RPM which drops back to 6,500 will be quicker than an engine shifted at 7,000K and drops back to 6,300K.

As 4x4 has alluded to, I suspect the 4:30 geared truck was caught in between two gears. If one did the math, I suspect the 3:73 truck kept it's % of RPM closer to peak HP.

This is a prime example of gears not making HP. In fact, as I have stated in the past, it's (slightly) the opposite.

With the car I drive right now we went from a 4:11 gear to a 3:73 gear and the ET got slightly quicker and the MPH went way up. We improved the HP slightly and the ET showed it.

Race cars and modern day trucks are far, far apart in technology..

You have to own a 6.2 to fully understand as to why the race between 3.73 and 4.30 outcome was not as folks would expect..

You see, the 6.2 engine management has a very aggressive computer program called traction assist.

Traction assist throttles back the engine automatically to prevent you from breaking traction..

Traction assist also does not open the throttle quickly below 2K RPM which also results in a bit slower acceleration at low speed..

I would bet that there are different throttle curves for the two different axle ratios on top of that.

4.30 ratio is far easier to break traction than 3.73 so unless they intentionally TURN OFF the traction assist (traction assist is AUTOMATICALLY ENABLED ON EVERY START) I can easily see how the 4.30 ratio would turn in slightly slower times..

Don't confuse torque management with Fords Flintstone like traction control. TC only activates once wheel spin is detected...and usually not for a good bit after the wheels are spinning.

[Gdetrailer]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
My guess is that the 4.30 made 1 more shift getting up to 60 mph .... so third gear where as the 3.73 would make it to 60 mph in 2nd. That would be a big advantage for the 3.73 as it would be running close to maximum horsepower as it approached 60 mph instead of loosing time to shift and then running at a lower horsepower rpm as it approached the 60 mph mark.


And it could be a similar thing in the 1/4 mile.

Winner, winner chicken diner!

To make a very complex explanation as short as I can:

Lets say an engine makes it's peak HP at 7,000 RPM. The closer I can keep that vehicle at 7,000 RPM for a given race, the quicker that vehicle is going to be.

To get the best time out of their cars racers actually over rev their engines slightly to do this.

EX: Again using the 7000K peak HP engine: An engine that is shifted at 7,200 RPM which drops back to 6,500 will be quicker than an engine shifted at 7,000K and drops back to 6,300K.

As 4x4 has alluded to, I suspect the 4:30 geared truck was caught in between two gears. If one did the math, I suspect the 3:73 truck kept it's % of RPM closer to peak HP.

This is a prime example of gears not making HP. In fact, as I have stated in the past, it's (slightly) the opposite.

With the car I drive right now we went from a 4:11 gear to a 3:73 gear and the ET got slightly quicker and the MPH went way up. We improved the HP slightly and the ET showed it.

Race cars and modern day trucks are far, far apart in technology..

You have to own a 6.2 to fully understand as to why the race between 3.73 and 4.30 outcome was not as folks would expect..

You see, the 6.2 engine management has a very aggressive computer program called traction assist.

Traction assist throttles back the engine automatically to prevent you from breaking traction..

Traction assist also does not open the throttle quickly below 2K RPM which also results in a bit slower acceleration at low speed..

I would bet that there are different throttle curves for the two different axle ratios on top of that.

4.30 ratio is far easier to break traction than 3.73 so unless they intentionally TURN OFF the traction assist (traction assist is AUTOMATICALLY ENABLED ON EVERY START) I can easily see how the 4.30 ratio would turn in slightly slower times..

[TomG2]

With today's big engines and low low first gear in the six speed transmissions, the advantage of the lower rear axle ratio simply goes up in smoke. From there on up, pick a gear that gives you the combination of rpm's and road speed that work best for you.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

4x4ord wrote:
My guess is that the 4.30 made 1 more shift getting up to 60 mph .... so third gear where as the 3.73 would make it to 60 mph in 2nd. That would be a big advantage for the 3.73 as it would be running close to maximum horsepower as it approached 60 mph instead of loosing time to shift and then running at a lower horsepower rpm as it approached the 60 mph mark.


And it could be a similar thing in the 1/4 mile.

Winner, winner chicken diner!

To make a very complex explanation as short as I can:

Lets say an engine makes it's peak HP at 7,000 RPM. The closer I can keep that vehicle at 7,000 RPM for a given race, the quicker that vehicle is going to be.

To get the best time out of their cars racers actually over rev their engines slightly to do this.

EX: Again using the 7000K peak HP engine: An engine that is shifted at 7,200 RPM which drops back to 6,500 will be quicker than an engine shifted at 7,000K and drops back to 6,300K.

As 4x4 has alluded to, I suspect the 4:30 geared truck was caught in between two gears. If one did the math, I suspect the 3:73 truck kept it's % of RPM closer to peak HP.

This is a prime example of gears not making HP. In fact, as I have stated in the past, it's (slightly) the opposite.

With the car I drive right now we went from a 4:11 gear to a 3:73 gear and the ET got slightly quicker and the MPH went way up. We improved the HP slightly and the ET showed it.